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Old 02-25-2009, 05:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
Good going! American men just leave their wives/girlfriends black and blue, maybe a broken bone or two, but, at least no beheading, except by an American GI in Fulda, Germany, in 1993. He cut off the head of his rival and brought it to his cheating wife's hospital bed.
Was he held criminally responsible? Or was it swept under the rug? That is the difference between US culture and certain middle eastern cultures.
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Old 02-25-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
I am not aware of any Islamic country that justifies honor killings. They may have laws against them that are a slap on the wrist for committing them, but I don't know of any that actually justify and allow honor killings. I think what they do justify is the notion that the perpetrator of these acts was so crazed at the time that he could not help himself because he was irrational. So, even if it's a crime by law, it's more viewed as a type of temporary insanity and thus gets a slap on the wrist.
I will have to disagree with you. I think by virtue of labeling it an act of passion would in itself be a way to justify the murders. Also, honor killings would not be so prevalent if there weren't wide support of them in these societies.
Regarding child brides, according to the religion, I think that girls are able to marry when they start their menstrual cycle, though many muslim countries have laws to prevent girls from marrying until a certain age. The youngest I saw according to Wikipedia was 14, most muslim countries were at least 16, or 17 or 18 (and there apparently are several states in the US that allow a girl to marry at 15 w/parental consent, btw). The most interesting in the list was Kuwait which had no minimum age by law but apparently a marriage cannot be "registered" until the girl is 15 and the boy 17. The thought of a 14 year old being married to a 60 year old with two other wives is disturbing to me, to say the least. As far as I understand it Islamically a woman has the right to agree or disagree on a marriage but forcing a young girl into marriage is something that does occur, partly because yes some of the girls are very young when they are married.

Regarding gay executions, I know nothing about them, only that the occur, where when how, stats I don't know. It seems that imams take the same position on homosexuality as fundamentalist christians, that the person was not born that way and can choose which way to go. It is a subject that needs researching. I myself am hoping that science makes some clear advances in this area. I'll never forget when a friend called to tell me that her teenage brother in law committed suicide. She told me "he was not straight" and I thought she was indicating his lifestyle (straight is used to describe those on the "straight path") But she was actually saying he was not straight, he was gay. It was very sad indeed to think of this young man taking his own life, which is supposed to be totally against Islam, and unless I am wrong one who commits suicide does not go to heaven. She was so distressed but I can only imagine the young man who so could not deal with one aspect of his life that was against his religion that he committed another act that was against his religion. May he rest in peace. In any case, it is an issue that I really haven't heard Muslims talking about (not that I have asked anyone about it mind you)
That is very sad about your friends brother in law. A lot of young gay teens do end up committing suicide because they can't live with the shame of it -- how ironic, they are committing their own honor killing. I too believe the cause of homosexuality is biological, and I hope that all of the more fundementalist religions - christian, muslim and judism - will recognize it as such.
What is happening in Iran to the homosexual men though is a crime against humanity, imo.

I don't know. Unless there is something in the Quran, like a specific punishment for certain actions, or in the hadith, I don't know how they would square it....
I wish that they would be interviewed and asked those very questions. They must have some kind of justification for their decisions.

There is no head honcho, no. Regarding a group of Imams, I don't know. We have the Islamic Council of North America, the Fiqh Council of North America, and the Islamic Society of North America. Regarding "groups of imams making decisions" you may ask Elwill that one, he'd know better than me.



Well I don't want to say that the US doesn't have any say, well in a sense you are right but I am wondering if there is some way for us to put pressure on these gov'ts and or encourage them to do more about it.
Yeah, that might work. Certainly in Afghanistan since we already have such a strong military presence there. If I am not mistaken, but in areas that are US controlled the women are allowed to vote and work again, in spite of the very real danger that is still present via the taliban.
Still, I don't know that we will risk p***ing off Saudi Arabia or Jordan - we need their oil and their goodwill.
I cannot say that there have been no specials on Al Jazeera about honor killings. For all I know the topic is covered once a month. Do you have any actual knowledge that this is not being discussed on Al Jazeera? Regarding the other Muslim countries stepping in, I just don't know.
I don't know if it has or has not been discussed on Al Jazeera. I just know that Al Jazeera is wildly popular and if they were to do exposes on the honor killings and why Islam is against them, it would hold a lot of weight. And probably save lives.

I don't know that there is a way for me to keep these actions out of the US. How would I? They are not common here to start with. The muslim communities I have been exposed to, here in the US and in the Caribbean where my DH and I lived for a time, have been pretty accepting, there were many women, myself included, that don't wear hijab. (obviously when you go to the mosque you need to wear it, though I have seen women there w/out it or it not being on properly) At worst, someone might ask a girl or woman why she doesn't. So to make an effort to stop honor killings in the US when you don't even see people having a problem w/a girl not wearing hijab, well I just don't know how I'd go about doing that. It's just not a huge problem here, the way I see it. Certainly much less common that your every day domestic violence and crime.
You got to live in the CArribean? And you voluntarily left (sorry, winter has been dragging on waaaay too long here )

Also in order to stop honor killings here in the US we'd have to know who would be doing them, and target our efforts there. But I don't know if that group can be identified here, as I really don't believe it is very large.
I suppose not, and of course the US is so large it would make it tougher then in say the Netherlands. They are having more problems with it, but then it is a much smaller place with much larger numbers of immigrants from areas that do have honor killings. I just hope we never have the problems that they do.
Perhaps the immigrants that move here are not as obsessed with what the other villagers think since they no longer live in the village? And I don't mean just Muslims but any immigrant.
I think that the effort to prevent honor killings/beatings/bride selling etc... will have to come from the muslim community (or the Indian community) and the specific ethnic immigrant communities themselves.
You know, when the catholics had problems with pedophilia it was a ..... creeping disease if you will. Noone knew about it, or if people heard whispers of a certain priest or troubles at a certain parish it was assumed that either it was a one in a million situation and/or it just didn't happen.
Well of course it did happen, and it happened a lot. The problem was the priests yes, but also the archbishops that either could not or would not admit that the problem existed. They did not want people to think less of the catholic church --- they didn't want to face the shame of it.
Of course that just made it worse.
What changed was victims coming out to their families, and the families supporting the victims. It then grew to catholics who did not have a 'victim' in the family, but realized that what happened was wrong. No matter how much they loved their religion, they realized that priests and archbishops are people and not infallible.
Now, people in different parishes talk with one another, we know the backgrounds of the priests that come and go and you had better believe that a pedophile will find it very very hard to get by again.
It is this sort of grassroots effort that I think that muslims in general need to have to stop practices that harm women and yes, harm your religions reputation. Catholocism will bear the stain of the pedophilia scandal for years to come, and rightly so. But at least they took back their religion.
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Old 02-25-2009, 07:55 PM
 
Location: mass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Again, I know what a Burqa is. I held in my hands. She put it on in front of me? Why do you question me? And what does it matter?
Ok, so you held it. What material was it made from? How many pieces was it in? Was the veil in front removable, so just the eyes could be seen? and was the piece that covers below the eyes removable?

Just curious since you have such first hand knowledge of the garment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Her husband was dressed like any other American man. Your point?
I made the point like three times already........Now you ask what my point is?

The point is, the men over there do not walk around like the men over here, in shorts and tank tops or no shirts. They wear pants and shirts or long robes. To expect women to be able to dress like women here when the men don't would be culturally ignorant. He was not dressed like any American man. How many American men do you see walking around in dress shirts and pants ALL the time in 100 degree weather????

Got the point now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Here is a good link about Honour Killings in the US.
FOXNews.com - Abuse of U.S. Muslim Women Is Greater Than Reported, Advocacy Groups Say - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327187,00.html - broken link)
That is NOT a link about HONOR KILLINGS IN THE US. It is about the increase in reports of domestic abuse from Muslim women over a period of time, and that it may be under reported, which I think it is HIGHLY likely that it is under reported. The article points out that the murders of the two Egyptian girls in Texas appear to be the first Honor Killings in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Video: Egyptian Lawyer says all Israeli women deserve to be raped
Video: Egyptian Lawyer says all Israeli women deserve to be raped | Infidels Are Cool
Do you want me to get links for all the idiotic interviews I have seen on the news and post them here? I don't know any Muslims that would agree with this woman. What does this have to do with honor killings anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Muslim clerics in the U.S. likely preached that Aasiya Hassan could have avoided her fate by being more obedient, said Muqtedar Khan, an associate professor of political science and international relations at the University of Delaware.
"Muslim Clerics LIKELY preached...."

Nice.

Now we are criticizing clerics, making assumptions of what imams here in the US "LIKELY" preached.

Can you find any instances of an Imam preaching that this was the woman's fault? I doubt it as many have come forward in support of the woman and bringing the message that domestic violence is against Islam.

Once again, it has been a pleasure.
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:06 PM
 
Location: mass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
It is this sort of grassroots effort that I think that muslims in general need to have to stop practices that harm women and yes, harm your religions reputation. Catholocism will bear the stain of the pedophilia scandal for years to come, and rightly so. But at least they took back their religion.
I agree on the grassroots effort.

But it only took the Catholic church, what, 40+ years to recognize this and do something about it, and they knew for a LONG time. (My mother was molested by a priest 50 years ago.)

How long do you think a grassroots effort would take to change the underlying CULTURAL issues associated w/ honor killings? You are talking about issues greater than sexually frustrated pedophile priests.
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:37 PM
 
Location: mass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I think by virtue of labeling it an act of passion would in itself be a way to justify the murders. Also, honor killings would not be so prevalent if there weren't wide support of them in these societies.
In a roundabout way, yes. Men know that they are going to get off easy. There's no legal motivation or consequence great enough for them not to commit an honor killing. Obviously the laws need to be commensurate with the crime.

And you are right about it not being so prevalent if there wasn't support or acceptance by other members of the community.

Here is a video of the stoning of Dua Khalil, who wasn't even Muslim, but a Kurdish teen of the Yazidi religion. She was stoned to death for associating with a Muslim boy. Warning, it is a very very disturbing video. But clearly shows the support/acceptance from members of the community you mention above. The poor girl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77-6O...eature=related

Last edited by mommytotwo; 02-25-2009 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:33 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,297,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
I agree on the grassroots effort.

But it only took the Catholic church, what, 40+ years to recognize this and do something about it, and they knew for a LONG time. (My mother was molested by a priest 50 years ago.)

How long do you think a grassroots effort would take to change the underlying CULTURAL issues associated w/ honor killings? You are talking about issues greater than sexually frustrated pedophile priests.

Oh, it will certainly take time. Something as embedded culturally - and most especially for those that believe their religion condones the behavior - it will take a lot of time. But that just underscores the importance of starting now. And there are many groups of muslim women who are doing just that - just google muslim women against honor killings. But as was shown in this thread, those women and their message was put aside because they were deemed to be not good muslims. And that is a damn shame. But perhaps there are groups out there that would be considered in good standing.

Now, I do feel that I need to say this about the priests.....the pedophile priests did not turn to children out of sexual frustration by which I would assume you meant celibacy. No, pedophiles are deviants of the worst kind, and they deliberatly go for jobs that would give them not only access to children, but authority over them. Careers like teachers, cub scout leaders, coaches and yes...priests and I am sure imams, rabbis and pastors and witch doctors too.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:36 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,297,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
In a roundabout way, yes. Men know that they are going to get off easy. There's no legal motivation or consequence great enough for them not to commit an honor killing. Obviously the laws need to be commensurate with the crime.

And you are right about it not being so prevalent if there wasn't support or acceptance by other members of the community.

Here is a video of the stoning of Dua Khalil, who wasn't even Muslim, but a Kurdish teen of the Yazidi religion. She was stoned to death for associating with a Muslim boy. Warning, it is a very very disturbing video. But clearly shows the support/acceptance from members of the community you mention above. The poor girl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77-6O...eature=related
No, I cannot watch the video anymore then I can watch the video of the boys in Iran.
The only good that can possibly come out of these deaths is that with the technology present everywhere more and more videos of honor killings and executions will be coming out of these countries/parts of the world. With exposure perhaps more people will have to see how ugly these things are, and perhaps it will ignite a fire to stop them by the people involved. After all, for them to be videotaped shows me that some people directly involved with these cultures do not approve of these killings.
Because to think they videotape them out of pride is just too sickening to think about.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:57 PM
 
Location: mass
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post

Now, I do feel that I need to say this about the priests.....the pedophile priests did not turn to children out of sexual frustration by which I would assume you meant celibacy. No, pedophiles are deviants of the worst kind, and they deliberatly go for jobs that would give them not only access to children, but authority over them. Careers like teachers, cub scout leaders, coaches and yes...priests and I am sure imams, rabbis and pastors and witch doctors too.
Yes I did mean celibacy....(sorry if I equate celibacy to sexually frustrated)

And yes they do go for those types of jobs.

But do you think any of the priests actions were due to celibacy? I was just thinking that maybe if they were really frustrated with being celibate, that they could not just go get a girlfriend (or did they?), so they may resort to children because they are easily manipulated and can be kept quiet. Not because they were pedophiles but because that was their only option? Ugh. That thought doesn't make it any better.

Even though they've moved past it I wonder if it has weakened the Catholic church irreparably, financially speaking anyway. My cousin works at a catholic school, at least for this year. They are closing all the catholic schools in the entire city and opening one large campus. (They have closed a couple schools a year for the last several years.) So she is out of a job (again, they closed the last school she was at). I don't know if enrollment is down or what....
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:11 PM
 
Location: egypt
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Oh, it will certainly take time. Something as embedded culturally - and most especially for those that believe their religion condones the behavior - it will take a lot of time. But that just underscores the importance of starting now. And there are many groups of muslim women who are doing just that - just google muslim women against honor killings. But as was shown in this thread, those women and their message was put aside because they were deemed to be not good muslims. And that is a damn shame. But perhaps there are groups out there that would be considered in good standing.
do you agree with me that it's very hard , may be impossible to prevent the crime 100% , all we can do is to decrease it ?

i think that if you need to prevent the honour killing crimes , so islamic society have to follow the culture of west as (opening adultery , sex out of marriage and bear childrens out of marriage )
if you succeed to make it okey for the daughter to live with her boyfriend and bear children out of marriage in islamic societies .
in this mattar there will be no honour killing because it will not anger any father or any brother if thier sister or daughters commit adultery .

if you wanna to accuse the islam religion for the honour killing crimes , so to make it correctly and fairly accuse it for prohibiting adultery
may be the only guilt with islam is that it prohibit adultery , do you disagree with islam for prohibiting adultery ?

and plz camping , if there are people justifyed the honour killing , so they are minority according to the islamic world
so , plz don't generalize your accuses against islam
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Yes I did mean celibacy....(sorry if I equate celibacy to sexually frustrated)

And yes they do go for those types of jobs.

But do you think any of the priests actions were due to celibacy? I was just thinking that maybe if they were really frustrated with being celibate, that they could not just go get a girlfriend (or did they?), so they may resort to children because they are easily manipulated and can be kept quiet. Not because they were pedophiles but because that was their only option? Ugh. That thought doesn't make it any better.

Even though they've moved past it I wonder if it has weakened the Catholic church irreparably, financially speaking anyway. My cousin works at a catholic school, at least for this year. They are closing all the catholic schools in the entire city and opening one large campus. (They have closed a couple schools a year for the last several years.) So she is out of a job (again, they closed the last school she was at). I don't know if enrollment is down or what....

No, I don't think that the priests that went after kids would have done any differently had they been lawyers or teachers. Now, there have been priests that couldn't take the celibacy (and lets face it, that is a hard road to go) and end up leaving the priesthood to marry and have children. And yes, some even leave the priesthood and openly live as homosexuals. There is just such a difference between normal sexuality and pedophilia --those sick cannot be trusted in society. I may be against the death penalty, but in the case of pedophiles I certainly am tempted to change my position.

As to the catholic school thing.....no, I don't think it has anything to do with the pedophilia scandals -- well, except that large payouts have gone to victims, so there is less cash to spread around. Otherwise there are a lot of reasons for the decline of parochoial schools, but mainly the economy, add into that if the area has excellent public schools there are less parents willing to spend money for private. In places where the public schools are not so good, you will find thriving catholic schools.
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