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And of course, you combine that with the fact that Muslims do largly seem to have less respect for women....and especially one who would dare to divorce her husband....and you can see how this story would have legs. Also the fact that this very man was in the business of promoting the moderate views of muslims....which obviously was a spectactular failure in his case..
Again the fiction about Muslims largely having less respect for women. Ok. Can you tell me what was the general state of women in the middle east before the advent of the Mercy of Mankind Prophet Muhammad s.a.w? Can anyone tell me honestly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper1372
Personally beheading would not be my first choice.
I'd go for beheading as long as the sword is razor sharp. It will be fast and instantaeneous. Over in a few seconds. Even the electric chair takes a few minutes right and it won't be that painless.
I don't have to, Elwill......plenty of Imams in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, amongst Bedouins, and Iran have already done so. You have pointed out before that such things as honor killings are more cultural then Islamic -- and you are right. But, in those cultures the Imams back up the practice by contorting the Koran to justify it. In other words, your religion is being twisted to condone the murder of women. What are you - an honorable muslim man - going to do about that?
no no , it's not twisted at all
another challange
give me your evidence that any Imamas justified it
Again the fiction about Muslims largely having less respect for women. Ok. Can you tell me what was the general state of women in the middle east before the advent of the Mercy of Mankind Prophet Muhammad s.a.w? Can anyone tell me honestly?
I'd go for beheading as long as the sword is razor sharp. It will be fast and instantaeneous. Over in a few seconds. Even the electric chair takes a few minutes right and it won't be that painless.
Point well taken, but whether it's a cultural thing or due to religion, I have no idea. I guess though how do you split things ? To be totally correct I should have said "women seem to have less rights and respect in cultures were muslim seems to be the predominant religion.
I mean women in general have been fighting for more respect and rights the world over for centuries. They certainly are not yet equally thought of in most if not all cultures....but if I was a woman and had to pick a place to live it would absolutely not be in one of the muslim countries.....so even though my point was perhaps not well worded, I stand by the larger idea I presented.
Point well taken, but whether it's a cultural thing or due to religion, I have no idea. I guess though how do you split things ? To be totally correct I should have said "women seem to have less rights and respect in cultures were muslim seems to be the predominant religion.
I mean women in general have been fighting for more respect and rights the world over for centuries. They certainly are not yet equally thought of in most if not all cultures....but if I was a woman and had to pick a place to live it would absolutely not be in one of the muslim countries.....so even though my point was perhaps not well worded, I stand by the larger idea I presented.
Just a very very short history of women lives in pre-Islamic arabia. Women were treated like whores or even worse. A woman might have to service a number of men. Wealthy men could have literally hundreds of wives if they chose to. Daughters were treated as a shameful burden thus it was the custom for fathers to take their daughters out to the desert and bury them alive. All such practices stopped upon the arrival of Islam.
I believe you should do a survey then among muslim women to find out whether they are satisfied living in their current muslim environment. But hey if this is your personal opinion then we respect that as each one is entitled to that
no no , it's not twisted at all
another challange
give me your evidence that any Imamas justified it
Is not Sharia Law Islamic Law? In the countries I mentioned, they are controlled by religious leaders -- why are the men that murder women in the name of 'honor' not imprisoned? After all, if it were illegal - and in these countries legal and Islamic are the same -would not the men be considered criminals? Yet, they suffer no punishment at all.
This goes beyond 'mere' honor killings -- what of the girls who were forced to stay in a burning building because they weren't 'properly' clothed?
Even better - just look at this website...look at the faces of the victims of honor killings and ask yourself why is this allowed in 'religious' countries? If a man can be arrested for not dressing properly, then why is he not arrested for killing his daughter? Stop Honorcide!
Just a very very short history of women lives in pre-Islamic arabia. Women were treated like whores or even worse. A woman might have to service a number of men. Wealthy men could have literally hundreds of wives if they chose to. Daughters were treated as a shameful burden thus it was the custom for fathers to take their daughters out to the desert and bury them alive. All such practices stopped upon the arrival of Islam.
I believe you should do a survey then among muslim women to find out whether they are satisfied living in their current muslim environment. But hey if this is your personal opinion then we respect that as each one is entitled to that
braderjo....you're right. Everyone does have their own opinion and that is as it should be. However, that being said, I personally find it very mentally stimulating to point and counter point on a respectful level to learn about not only about others beliefs/thoughts/opinions, but also to refine my own which is and should be an ever evolving process.
I'd be shocked if I found out that many if not most women in Muslim cultures aren't satisfied with their situation. Perhaps that could be explained by the fact that they've lived a sequestered life and never been outside of their own locality to see any contrast to their own situation. If it's all you know, you're more likely to be satisfied than if you see other women who may be something you're not allowed to be.
Kind of like I was perfectly satisfied with my 20" TV until I was in Best Buy about 5 years ago and saw my first 42" wide screen TV.....suddenly my 20" letter box screen TV was not satisfying anymore. I knew it was all over but writing the check a few years later when the prices came down to where I could satisify my want.
Regarding the pre-muslim culture you mentioned where women/daughters were buried alive to get rid of them....wow, is that tragic or what. So some improvements have been made...but certainly not enough. Now, from what I've read, keeping in mind these may be the most egregious examples....but in Afganistan women are kept in the house with painted over windows and only allowed out fully covered in a "burka" along with a related male and there are allowed no radios or TV listening etc. I guess they are killed if they are found guilty of infidelity.
Kind of makes the US problem of women making 65 cents on the dollar compared to a man seen almost like a non-issue
And I mean KNOW, not "have seen" not "have said hello to" not "sat next to on the bus" etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
Are you saying that the Muslim religion is creating lunatics? Because there are an awful lot of them out there who are committing these crimes.
This is stupidity. I said no such thing. There are an awful lot of criminals out there, of various religious persuasions.
Why do you insist on personally attacking and insulting me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
Perhaps you should hide the knives.....
No I am not going to hide the knives. I only made the comment so you would recognize the stupidity in such a statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
you obviously can't teach your children anything but Islam from your previous posts
What is this supposed to mean? I "cannot teach my children anything but Islam" from my previous posts?
Which posts? Come on, that statment is garbage. My kids probably know more about Christianity than the average kid with a Christmas tree. My entire family, except me and my kids, are Christian. So of course my children learn about Christianity. They learn what Christians believe, and how that differs from what Muslims believe. Later on, if they decide they believe what half their family believes, there really will be nothing I can do about it. There is only so much I can do with and for them, to lay a foundation, when it boils down to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
so keep defending the faith because now you are stuck in it.
Simply put, No I am Not. I am not "stuck" in my religion. No one is going to harm me if I change my mind. Certainly someone (my brother in law comes to mind) would try to convince me not to, just as much as a Jehova witness tries to convince you to join their religion, but no one would harm me. So I am not "stuck" as you say.
I also don't have to defend it. I choose to, most especially because you sound like a bigot. And, if I were to group the people who might read this thread, they would probably either fall into your camp, or the other camp consisting of those who recognize that not all muslims are monsters (and perhaps a few somewhere in between). So I am probably just wasting my breath here, but in the hopes that I can get just ONE person (you will not likely be the one) to move to the other camp, I take the time to respond to your clearly biased remarks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
Yes domestic violence is a problem in this country, however, Americans don't go around beheading our citizens.....that is reserved for the Muslim faith.
Oh, and you are soooooo right, beheading is barbaric (at least we agree on that), but beating someone to death is much more humane! Or shooting them 4 times or stabbing them 27 times, or drowning them in a tub, or breaking their neck, or HANGING THEM or GASSING them or tying them to the back of your pickup truck and driving a few miles, or lighting them on fire, or pushing them off a mountain top, yes, these are all more humane ways to kill them.
Dead is dead. I made my point and you cannot even respond to it. There is no nice way to kill someone, and people get killed all the time by all kinds of people.
Perhaps there are more beheadings in the Middle East/Muslim countries because the culture is familiar with this method of killing as it is how they sacrifice animals. Not because they are brutal, blood thirsty, I-am-carrying-a-gun-but-I-would-rather-slit-your-throat-and-see-your-blood-splatter-everywhere-just-for-the-heck-of-it kind of people.
Wow, I just wrote and deleted three paragraphs after I realized I was just sinking to Mrs. Mtn's level. I really have to avoid that.
Can't chat anymore, got to get DS to hockey practice.
Is not Sharia Law Islamic Law? In the countries I mentioned, they are controlled by religious leaders -- why are the men that murder women in the name of 'honor' not imprisoned? After all, if it were illegal - and in these countries legal and Islamic are the same -would not the men be considered criminals? Yet, they suffer no punishment at all.
This goes beyond 'mere' honor killings -- what of the girls who were forced to stay in a burning building because they weren't 'properly' clothed?
i knew it .
i knew that you have no evidence about your proclaims
you said to me plenty of Imams in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, amongst Bedouins, and Iran justified the honour killing practices
plenty of Imams huh !!!!!!!!!! , yet you even didn't find for me just one , i think that those imams are only inside your closed mind
please camping , if you are not sure from what you talking about it will be better to keep silent
i knew it .
i knew that you have no evidence about your proclaims
you said to me plenty of Imams in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, amongst Bedouins, and Iran justified the honour killing practices
plenty of Imams huh !!!!!!!!!! , yet you even didn't find for me just one , i think that those imams are only inside your closed mind
please camping , if you are not sure from what you talking about it will be better to keep silent
for your information , ploicemen are not imams
But in countries that live under sharia law they are certainly the henchmen of the imams, no?
After all -- what is sharia law if not the law of Islam?
And of course, what is the mutawan if not an arm of the imams in saudi arabia?
The fact that the mutaween have long acted with this kind of impunity makes many Saudis skeptical that the ruling al-Saud clan will hold them accountable to the rule of law. Such a move would entail taking on the overall religious establishment, which controls the mosques, the judiciary and various education departments as well as the morality police http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...7239-2,00.html
But educate me, elwill -- and I mean that most sincerely. If sharia law is not islamic, then why is it practiced in Islamic societies? If honor killings are not justified by local imams, then why are the men who kill their daughters/wives/sisters left unpunished in Islamic socieities?
According to the United Nations Population Fund more than 5,000 women worldwide fall victim to honour killing each year.
Well there you go.
According to the UN’s Special Rapporteur “honour killings had been reported in Egypt, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey and Yemen”. Egypt is 90 percent Muslim, Iran 98 percent, Jordan 92 percent, Lebanon 60 percent, Morocco 99 percent, Pakistan 97 percent, the Syrian Arab Republic 90 percent and Turkey 99 percent. Of the 192 member-states of the United Nations almost all honour killings take place in nine overwhelmingly Muslim countries.
More recently, honour killings have taken place in France, Germany, the United Kingdom and Canada. Intriguingly, all these honour killings have taken place in Muslim communities of France, Germany, the United Kingdom and Canada.
Two beautiful girls that were murdered by their Muslim father
Last edited by MrsMtnsOnTheMind; 02-22-2009 at 01:46 PM..
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I only made the comment so you would recognize the stupidity in such a statement.
