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Old 02-23-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
I'd list some, but if I brought up the most well-known large-scale event in recent history, I'd Godwin the thread.
What does Godwin the thread mean?

You have my curiosity up re the large-scale event..............
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Yep -- as a woman I must say I would sure feel great living under taliban rule, lets ask the woman
OOPS! Can't ask her, cause she is dead. Maybe you will take their word for it.
Do you really think the taliban represents the real Islam? Do you know how many societies/cultures there are? This shows just how little you really know about Islam but I don't blame you..
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:10 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,298,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
OOPS! Can't ask her, cause she is dead.

Camping, he did say the position of women in Arabia before the coming of Prophet Mohammed.

I hope he would not agree that the treatment of women by the Taliban was a model of how muslim women are supposed to be treated.



Thanks for the link to the website.

That is exactly what I would expect from MsMtn if she was actually campaigning against honor killings.
No, no -- I do not tie honor killings and other abuses to muslims. Not at all! I do see that there are moderate muslims and then there are Islamists...in my mind two different things. Much like there are baptists then there is fred phelps westboro baptist church.

My confusion lies with these crimes occuring in highly religious if not theocratic socities. Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia to name just a few -- are places that are very proud to be upholding Islamic law yet when they murder their women noone is punished for it. And there is no good explanation as to why this is. I mean, we have seen the fate of gay men in Iran and we have heard that men are subject to public beatings if they shave their beard in Pakistan and Afghanistan YET when a woman is killed for familial honor it is not about Islam.
I sense hypocrisy here if not a complete unwillingness to address the issue. I can only assume it is because either moderate muslim men secretly agree with it, or are too afraid to speak up about it. Either way, you need to take back your religion from those that are perverting it with sanctioned murder, much the way the catholics took back their religion from pedophiles and those that would hide them to avoid the shame.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:13 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,298,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Do you really think the taliban represents the real Islam? Do you know how many societies/cultures there are? This shows just how little you really know about Islam but I don't blame you..
Yes, lets look to Iran or Iraq or Jordan or Syria or Gaza or Pakistan....hey, lets even look to countries that people from these areas are immigrating to..countries like the UK, the Netherlands, Canada and the US. All these western countries are now experiencing honor killings. Coincidance? Well, there is a difference, unlike in say - Iran, honor killers are actually prosecuted in the West. Well, when they are not being protected by their fellow immigrants that is.

But did you read the link, braderjoe? It is a website primarily for muslims by muslims? What do you think of it?
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:16 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,262,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
What does Godwin the thread mean?

You have my curiosity up re the large-scale event..............
To "Godwin" a thread means to invoke Nazis or Hitler in some way.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
But did you read the link, braderjoe? It is a website primarily for muslims by muslims? What do you think of it?
Yes I have visited the site and read some of its contents..However there are inconsistencies there.

Firstly, its not a muslim website for muslims as you can obviously see from the Campagn Co-Chairs. Right off the bat you have a person with a muslim name but who is co-promoter of a website against Sharia Law when obviously if you are a muslim you know that Sharia is God's law. And in that website she states that the Quran is flawed and that its inconsistent which obviously reveals that this person is not a practising muslim, if she was one in the first place.
So, I'm sorry but i'm not overly impressed with that website as it obviously has already set an anti-Islam agenda. Though i do agree as does mommytwo that honor killing etc is against Islam. Please bear that in mind that religion and culture sometimes get mixed up and that Islam and the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w is very much against that. You don't see honor killings amongst China's significant muslim minority nor in South East Asia amongst others...
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:47 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,298,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Yes I have visited the site and read some of its contents..However there are inconsistencies there.

Firstly, its not a muslim website for muslims as you can obviously see from the Campagn Co-Chairs. Right off the bat you have a person with a muslim name but who is co-promoter of a website against Sharia Law when obviously if you are a muslim you know that Sharia is God's law. And in that website she states that the Quran is flawed and that its inconsistent which obviously reveals that this person is not a practising muslim, if she was one in the first place.
So, I'm sorry but i'm not overly impressed with that website as it obviously has already set an anti-Islam agenda. Though i do agree as does mommytwo that honor killing etc is against Islam. Please bear that in mind that religion and culture sometimes get mixed up and that Islam and the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w is very much against that. You don't see honor killings amongst China's significant muslim minority nor in South East Asia amongst others...
Yes, it is cultural but the prevailing cultures are justifying honor killings and the like by saying Islam condones it. Else how is it allowed to flourish?
As a muslim man, does it not offend you that there are other muslim men who will kill muslim women in the name of your religion -- which you clearly hold dear?

Explain these rulings to me -- rulings that are said to be based in Islam

Girl gets a year in jail, 100 lashes for adultery
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index...=2009020828735

A Saudi judge recently refused to annul a marriage between an 8-year-old girl and a 47-year-old man -- a union apparently arranged by the girl's father to settle his debts -- a lawyer in the case told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...age/index.html

The West Bank and Gaza Strip are governed by the Palestinian Authority under a combination of Jordanian, Egyptian, and tribal laws. Israel has no jurisdiction in these territories. There are at least twenty-five "official" honor killings a year among the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and thirty-five a year in Jordan. The actual number of deaths is much higher. Hundreds of women have died from strange and unusual accidents or questionable suicides. Many more are buried in the desert, unreported and unaccounted for. The secret of their fate is entombed with them in the sand. The lack of reliable statistics has hindered women's groups and human rights organizations in their campaign to eliminate honor killings.
[SIZE=3]http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/pub.../may/clpub.asp


As for the first link I gave you -- I honestly didnot see that as an anti islamic site. Sorry about that.
Perhaps this site will be better for you

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/in...ticle&sid=1587

Last edited by camping!; 02-23-2009 at 10:10 AM..
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Yes, it is cultural but the prevailing cultures are justifying honor killings and the like by saying Islam condones it. Else how is it allowed to flourish?
Then its wrong because as I've stated, as an example in S.E. Asia where i live....honor killing is unheard of. What is happening elsewhere in Pakistan etc has happened way back before Islam had even reached there. If those people attempt to justify it in the name of Islam, they are wrong..enuf said. Islam does not preach that. Islam is not to be blamed.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
No, no -- I do not tie honor killings and other abuses to muslims. Not at all! I do see that there are moderate muslims and then there are Islamists...in my mind two different things.
Unfortunately some here don't make the distinction. And it is an important distinction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
My confusion lies with these crimes occuring in highly religious if not theocratic societies. Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia to name just a few -- are places that are very proud to be upholding Islamic law yet when they murder their women no one is punished for it. And there is no good explanation as to why this is.
Look, if you are saying Islam allows honor killings, I would have to disagree. If you say that Islam justifies honor killings, I disagree. If you are saying that honor killings happen because of the presence of religion or because of the presence of strict rules of society, I would agree with you. In that particular area of the world, the religion is mostly Islam. The problem with this discussion is that we are having it on a clearly biased thread. If the thread was titled, "Honor killings are not allowed in Islam, so why do so many women fall victim to honor killing by their Muslim relatives?" you might find more muslims willing to discuss the issue in an impartial way. But no, we are having this discussion on a thread about a man who killed his wife, not because of "honor" but because he apparently was pissed off that she would divorce him, which in and of itself is not uncommon here in the US. (Think of how many women are victimized by their husbands here, from emotional to physical abuse to murder). Then you get someone coming on and saying that even moderate muslims are increasing their nut job actions and another saying that any muslim at any time may slit your throat. What kind of reaction and discussion do you expect to occur after that??? I mean really.

There is no good or justifiable explanation for why honor killings are occurring in Islamic countries. To understand them at all we would have to look at why honor killings occur in the first place. The problem seems to be this, the more religious the people are, the more they expect each other to follow the "rules". (If not religious rules than general rules of a society) There are very rigid values and standards that everyone is expected to adhere to. When someone doesn't, it causes embarrassment and humiliation to the family. Some muslims (yes other religious groups as well), in some areas, seem to think that the only solution is to kill the girl, for example, to save the family honor. Because how your children behave reflects how well you have taught them the rules of society. If they go against the rules, you obviously weren't a good teacher. If one of your daughters isn't following the rules and you are not a good teacher, then your other daughters are probably no good either. So no one will allow their sons to marry your daughter. It's a vicious cycle, and though there is no base in Islam for honor killings, there is no doubt that the girl was killed because her family was very religious, or because there were standards that that particular society adheres to, no matter what the religion. Is it right? Certainly not. Is it Islamic? Certainly not.

The only thing I can compare it to is how some women were treated say, 100 years ago with regards to pregnancy before marriage. I can tell you that my Great Grandmother lived in Vermont got pregnant by a Canadian soldier. She was completely ostracized by her wealthy family (don't know if it was because they were "religious" but they probably were Protestant). She was thrown out of the family house at the age of 19, went on to leave the state, struggle to live by herself as a single mother with no family support, then died of TB (interestingly enough, while pregnant again) on Christmas Eve when my grandfather was only 5.

So we can say that she basically died because she did not follow the rules of her society (or religion, if that is what prompted her parents to throw her out).

Obviously honor killings in the Middle East are more vicious, as they are killing the girls and women not just throwing them out of the house.

Do we have this problem in this country now? It doesn't seem so. Even the Vice President who is religious and believes in abstinence can have a knocked up teenager and no one bats an eyelash. The stakes are just not as high for us and frankly no one seems to care anymore.

What is the solution? I don't know. Advancement of society? A deterioration of religion? Certainly if people weren't so religious in Muslim countries (And we could insert any religion here, if there in fact even existed any really religious countries anymore), it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But this takes time. And these countries who are so religious look at us in the US and freak out, because the way they see it we have totally lost our religion and our values.

If we took religion out of the equation, as in a secular society, there would still be values of the society to abide by, I guess we would call those laws. Laws like we have here. You do this action, which society has decided to outlaw, you suffer this penalty. Jail, probation, death penalty, whatever it may be. There are still rules about how people have to behave and consequences to breaking the rules.

these countries that are turning a blind eye to honor killings are basically allowing vigilante "justice" which is really not justice at all but murder. And they are not doing enough to prevent it, that is certain, because the practice continues. But I am just not sure how it can be prevented, I'd say education, but I don't know what the stats are on people who commit honor killings are. I would guess that some of them are in fact well educated people, but most are not. That is pure speculation on my part. I would also guess that this happens more in smaller communities than large but again, not only in small communities but also large. So what to do? I am just not sure.

The problem with discussing it here, camping, is that while you seem to be entirely rational, and ask legitimate questions and want a dialogue, there are others here who just want to inflame people against an entire group of people, a large (and increasing percentage) of which have nothing to do with honor killing. With people like that posting, it really detracts from meaningful discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I sense hypocrisy here if not a complete unwillingness to address the issue. I can only assume it is because either moderate muslim men secretly agree with it, or are too afraid to speak up about it. Either way, you need to take back your religion from those that are perverting it with sanctioned murder

I have addressed the issue above. I think that many would agree with me. The problem is what to do. How to solve the problem of "family honor" while people maintain their religion. Is it education? Secular government? Stricter laws for family members committing heinous crimes? All of the above? Should we, the US make more programs for women in danger to flee here, make it easier to seek political asylum because of this? Perhaps. I did meet a girl from Jordan who did come here to escape something she was going through over there, she never did say what, but somehow she managed to get over here. So, should we be advocating getting these women over here in the meantime, till their countries address the issue? I don't know.

It does make me glad I live in the USA. Because one thing is for sure, Muslim girls really don't have to worry about being killed by their family for the most part (and yes I have heard about the two girls in Texas but that is not the norm for Muslim girls in this country)

My daughter will have the freedom to practice her religion (or not) without fear of anyone killing her. (and if she is negatively impacted by her religion it will be more likely by someone prejudiced against muslims not another muslim) We are completely lacking that "oh my god what will the neighbors think, now who will marry your sister?" mentality. If anyone doesn't like our daughter's behavior, well, they don't have to marry her then. She'll find someone else.

Sorry so long but anyone who really wants to participate in this discussion probably won't mind.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:44 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,202,936 times
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Ahh...you are a revert to Islam eh mommytwo? Alhamdulillah God has lead you to the straight path.

It seems that they start these threads not with any intention of having a fruitful debate but just to criticise Islam w/o any real hard facts to back them up.

It is fine that you feel safe living in the US and i wish you all the best in taking care of your kids though my dear sister, you must do your best as a parent to ensure that your children grow up practising Islam as it was meant cause you will be answerable to God should they stray from the straight path due to lack of education etc about Islam. As it was told by the Prophet 'When a person dies, he leaves behind 3 things - his wealth, his children and his good deeds and out of these 3 only his good deeds will follow him to his grave
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