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Old 02-23-2009, 04:18 AM
 
Location: egypt
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i posted this one within another thread , but unfortunatly no responses back to me , and i really hope to hear some refutations or objections about it or any kind of reaction about it


one of the verses are talking about angels

32-5 (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.

the verse is talking about the angels whom carry out these orders from heavens to the earth .
in the time of mohammed (pbuh) people measured the distances neither in kilometers nor in miles but rather by how much time they needed to walk.

For example, a village two days away meant a distance equivalent to walking for two days; ten days away meant a distance equivalent to walking for ten days... However in this verse the Quran specifies 1000 years of what they counted (not what they walked). Those people back then followed the lunar calendar and counted 12 lunar months each year. These months are related to the moon and not related to the sun. Hence in 1 day the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted (the moon). Since this verse is referring to distance, then God is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 12000 lunar orbits.


Outside gravitational fields this speed turned out to be the known speed of light , which means that the speed of the angles equal the speed of the light
(mslems believe that angels are low density creatures, and that God created them originally from light )


yet , i didn't proof anything , be patient


there is another verse in the quran informes us different informations about traveling of angles from earth to heaven which say

70-4 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years (time vs. time and not time vs. distance as the previous lunar verse)


However, according to the theory of special relativity, given this time difference (time dilation), we can calculate the speed at which that object traveled.

We can verify if those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light, as claimed by Moslems, on the first verse



Where ∆to is the time measured for a mover by a mover;
∆t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer)
∆to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).
∆t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 lunar years x12 lunar months/lunar year x 27.321661 days/lunar month).
v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).
c is the known speed of light 2997924.48 km/s, the speed of light in vacuum



From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity:


So letís insert the Moslem claims and see if their angels really accelerate up to the speed of light or not. Insert dates from this verse The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years into the formula




v = 299792.4579999994 km / s ( and this is the speed of light )








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Old 02-23-2009, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
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I do think that's an interesting post elwill. Let me ask you, is the part you've highlighted in blue a direct quote from the Quran? Also, I see that the two quotations in blue have different numbers and you've used the second one for your calculations which has 50,000. Do these two quotations contradict each other because one of them calculates to be about the speed of light while the other one does not? I'm really not a math whiz and I wish Coos was around to check out the calculations or anyone else for that matter. If a passage from the Quran did happen to equal the exact speed of light I'll admit that would be quite a coincidence but I'd like to see what others who are proficient in these kind of mathematical equations have to say about it. Thanks.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
If a passage from the Quran did happen to equal the exact speed of light I'll admit that would be quite a coincidence but I'd like to see what others who are proficient in these kind of mathematical equations have to say about it. Thanks.

a number consist of nine digits calculated from the quran and this number is not about money or people or any thing else but it is specifically about speed and when the number match another scientific number also talks about speed and you say it is coincidence .

it is not fair and not practical.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:40 AM
 
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I do find it interesting but there's not much of a coincidence here.

Let's take a look at the square root part of the equation:
(1-1/(time elapsed by the angels)^2)^1/2

Now let's say that it took them 30 years:

v=c x (1-0.00000000000001033)^1/2
v=c x 0.999999999999897

Now let's say that it took them 20 days:

v=c x (1-0.0025)^1/2

v= c x 0.9987492178

Let's say it took them 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000 years:
v=c x (1-0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000....0001)^1/2
v= c x 1

See how there is not much difference? This is because to get any significant time dilation, you will always need to be travelling incredibly close to the speed of light.

Edit: I think the quran is just saying that the angels travel 16200000 times faster than people and nothing to do with relativity.

Last edited by coosjoaquin; 02-24-2009 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:15 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I do think that's an interesting post elwill. Let me ask you, is the part you've highlighted in blue a direct quote from the Quran? Also, I see that the two quotations in blue have different numbers and you've used the second one for your calculations which has 50,000. Do these two quotations contradict each other because one of them calculates to be about the speed of light while the other one does not? I'm really not a math whiz and I wish Coos was around to check out the calculations or anyone else for that matter. If a passage from the Quran did happen to equal the exact speed of light I'll admit that would be quite a coincidence but I'd like to see what others who are proficient in these kind of mathematical equations have to say about it. Thanks.
hi monatanaGuy , the two numbers are two different variables from two different verses from quran
in the first on it gave us the difference in distance according to time , then we calculate the velocity

for example ,if you know the speed of your car according to the time
then i said to you that my car take the double of your distance in the same time , then you can conclude that my speed is douple of yours , so if your speed is 2km/h means that my speed is 4km/h , you knew that because i said that i travel the double of your distance in the same time you take


the first verse God saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 12000 lunar orbits.
(it's time vs. distance ) we conclude from this verse that the velocity of angels is the same velocity of speed which known scientifically in modern days ,
may be it was coincidence but it wasn't my main point here to mention about the speed of light

anyway with second verse from quran , we have different variable where we can measure the speed of same object (angeles)
it say that the angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years
(it's time vs time not time vs. distance as the previous lunar verse )

so to conlude the velocity of the angeles according these new variable , we have to use the special relativity equation
so that we concluded that the velocity concluded from this verse is the same of the velocity concluded in the first one which is the velocity of angeles

it proofs that there is no contradictions in quran knowledge

Last edited by elwill; 02-24-2009 at 02:25 AM..
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:17 AM
 
Location: egypt
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you are pefectly right , i understand your point , and feel pleasure for your calculations either
but you separated the two verses , actually my main point is to proof how accurate is quran , and how it's verses complement and fulfill and proof each other

Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post

Edit: I think the quran is just saying that the angels travel 16200000 times faster than people and nothing to do with relativity.
actually i diagree with you
for scientific reasons it will be not accurate from God to inform us that angels travel 1620000 times faster than people
scientists say that

"When we compare the nominal speed of light in vacuum with 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day inside the gravitational field of the sun we get 11% difference. When we compare them outside the gravitational field of the sun we get zero% . The distance to the sun is not a constant, so as the distance to the sun increases the difference in energy causes the length of the lunar orbit to change. When the Earth-moon system exits the solar system 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day becomes equal to the speed of light. Hence, if it is defined inside the gravitational field of the sun then this definition will be wrong with time; however since it is defined in free space (outside the gravitational field of the sun) then this definition will be true for ever

so you defined it as to be 16200000 faster than people which will be wrong defination because this value according to people measures changes continously as long as it's inside gravitational field
the concept of quran to reference the velocity of angles according to the lunar orbits is a miracle in itself
definition in quran will be true for ever concerning the speed of angeles


Quote:
I do find it interesting but there's not much of a coincidence here.

Let's take a look at the square root part of the equation:
(1-1/(time elapsed by the angels)^2)^1/2

Now let's say that it took them 30 years:

v=c x (1-0.00000000000001033)^1/2
v=c x 0.999999999999897

Now let's say that it took them 20 days:

v=c x (1-0.0025)^1/2

v= c x 0.9987492178

Let's say it took them 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000 years:
v=c x (1-0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000....0001)^1/2
v= c x 1

See how there is not much difference? This is because to get any significant time dilation, you will always need to be travelling incredibly close to the speed of light.
well , but quran gave us the exact and most accurate time which will be compatible to the speed of angles which calculated in the first verse
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
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Interesting post, elwill...but still it is not evidence of the existence of god or the veracity of your Quran.
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Thanks Coos, if someone asks me "If Jesus cast out 6 of 10 unclean spirits, how many unclean spirits are left?" I have to break out a calculator.
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,890 posts, read 4,203,048 times
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Interesting to say the least, but it begs the question: If the Quran is talking about special relativity why did it take 1200 years to come up with the theory? There has been many great scientific minds in the middle east long before Einstein. Maybe Einstein was reading the Quran and had an epiphany. Or maybe this verse really has nothing to do with relativity, and we are wishful thinking.
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:18 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
Interesting post, elwill...but still it is not evidence of the existence of god or the veracity of your Quran.

hi sususushi , thank you for your pass
may be it's evidence to me that at least i follow valuable book which deserve to be the words of God , may be it strengthen my faith only , i didn't expect from anyone to be witness on islam , it isn't my intension , but i found it interresting and valuable to share , and i needed to hear some refutations or remarks . i know that there are many memberes here are good with these facts more than me
and may be i misinformed by this miracle so that i wanted to be sure.

it's not the end of the miracles regarding this issue , i can show you the age of universe by math by some knowldge given in verses of quran , i just wanna to know if anyone really interest to listnning !

i appereciate your pass , thank you
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