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Old 03-16-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
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I'm all for inter-faith dialogue when the Muslims accept Jesus Christ as one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise it's a total waste of dialogue.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:26 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,202,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
I'm all for inter-faith dialogue when the Muslims accept Jesus Christ as one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise it's a total waste of dialogue.
My..my...you do have an open mind
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:51 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 4,099,393 times
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
My..my...you do have an open mind

At least as open as most of the others around here.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:56 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,202,780 times
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
At least as open as most of the others around here.
Quite a number are open...while others seem to have their zippers stuck on closed
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,592,462 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
My..my...you do have an open mind
LOL.

I don't really know of your ideology. But here is what I have raised within myself. And I have been a student of history since my youngest years. I have studied European, Byzantine and Arab histories, particularly stressed on religion.

The creation of Islam was purely political, unlike Judaism or Christianity which were conceptually based on the idea of God the father/resurrection. Islam was born much later and it effectively reaches out to the same God the Father. Allah is nothing but "God" in Arabic. They reverse engineered the concept and tagged a new language to it.

Hundreds of years after Judaism and Jesus comes Islam. And following the exploits of Mohammed, one can see the sheer politics behind his religion. It's all about rallying the Arabs and making them into one political unit in the name of God.

The very existence of Jesus and Mary in the Quran is testimony to the fact that they plagiarized the existing Greek/Hebrew texts which were circulating around the time.

The only reason why Jesus was downgraded to the status of Prophet was that he was a Jew.

Also, why Jesus, born of a virgin, by divine intervention is less important than the mortal Mohammed? Or was Mohammed born of a virgin too to quantify the status of prophetic equality?

If only Mohammed were co-operative, he would have become a Pope or at least an anti-Pope . Imagine the massive amount of power from Britain to Afghanistan under one Pope.

He missed an opportunity.

Each time I think of Islam, I can't help but put my mind to metallurgy. Concepts like alloys, amalgamation and the like. And the metallurgist always argues that his alloy rocks and surpasses the combined positives of the ingredient metals.
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Old 03-16-2009, 12:53 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,202,780 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
I don't really know of your ideology. But here is what I have raised within myself. And I have been a student of history since my youngest years. I have studied European, Byzantine and Arab histories, particularly stressed on religion.
My friend...somehow i find that hard to believe. Even if that were true, you came in studying with your mindset/ideology of the trinity already set so that to me disqualify you from being an objective student of the subjects you profess. What texts were you studying from? Were you allowed to color the big black&white drawings that comes in those books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
The creation of Islam was purely political, unlike Judaism or Christianity which were conceptually based on the idea of God the father/resurrection. Islam was born much later and it effectively reaches out to the same God the Father. Allah is nothing but "God" in Arabic. They reverse engineered the concept and tagged a new language to it.
Purely political? This just confirms my suspicions about you being a Grade A student in history. Are you sure you didn't take a course in "Alternate History in the Marvel/DC Universe" by mistake?
Pray tell where in Judaism there is mention of the Trinity? In fact, Jesus is better treated in Islamic culture than he ever was by his own tribe. Islam has been around since the beginning of Adam. Do you actually know what Muslim mean? Muslim means submission to God and thus those who submit to God and accept his prophets are called Muslims. Abraham was a muslim because he submitted to God as was Moses and Aaron and yes.. Jesus too. Moses,Aaron etc were jews by race but muslims by religion. Abraham was a Caanite.Do you get what I'm trying to convey?
Islam is not named or fixed after a particular prophet such as Judaism is to Judah or Christianity to Jesus. There is no Mohammadism. Don't you think Allah or Yhweh is a better word than God? Because with God, if you tag dess after it, the word become Goddess - a female god or with just an 's' the word become Gods or Goddessess - many gods...Where God is Only, neither male nor female.
Islam is not a new religion 'born' after. It is a natural progression to rectify the errors and corruption that had crept up in the earlier versions of God's Holy Books ie the Torah and the Bible.
I don't know man...its lucky you did not take this as a college course or something like that because you would have definately gotten an 'F' and flunked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
Hundreds of years after Judaism and Jesus comes Islam. And following the exploits of Mohammed, one can see the sheer politics behind his religion. It's all about rallying the Arabs and making them into one political unit in the name of God.
Politics again!..No my friend, its not just politics. With the directions from God Almighty, Muhammad s.a.w led his people out from the darkness into the light of monoethism. He transformed them from a culture where blood vendettas, treatment of women as mere sex objects, killing of infant daughters into a culture where honour and respect and piety is some of the characteristics to be desired. You do not get it, its sad. You see..Islam is much more than a weekend religion where you pray only on Sundays and the rest of the week you prey on your fellows. It incoporates everything - from social to law to politics to family life. It is a way of life. You don't just think about God on Sundays but everyday. From the time you wake up until the time you sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
The very existence of Jesus and Mary in the Quran is testimony to the fact that they plagiarized the existing Greek/Hebrew texts which were circulating around the time.
What existing text were there then? There was no Arabic bible at that time. There is always that arguments that the Quran was plagiarizing Greek material but if that was so, then why did it not plagiarize completely? There are many instances where the Quran seemingly goes against Greek doctrine/thinking of that time when by right it should have agreed completely with those thinkings. Especially with regards to science where only now has science reach to a level where it is able to verify and substantiate verses in the Quran which allude to scientific principles and up till now there is not one 'scientific' verse in the Quran which goes against modern science. Surely an unlettered man like Muhammad s.a.w could not be the author.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
The only reason why Jesus was downgraded to the status of Prophet was that he was a Jew. .
Downgraded because he was a jew? Oh jeez..what about Moses, David, Solomon then? That is just silly hypothesis. In fact, the arabs can justifiably claim to be getting the short end of the stick. Why? Its because they share the same father as the jews in Abraham. God had promised to Abraham greatness for both Ishmael's & Isaac's descendants. (Its in the bible you know) Well...the long line of prophets right up to Jesus, that emerge from Isaac testfies to God's keeping his end of the bargain to the jews though sadly the children of Israel kept straying from the true path and did not kept their end of the deal. So after the last messenger, Jesus was betrayed by the pharisees and his teachings were slowly being distorted by another jew, a guy named Saul aka Paul, God played his trump card, the Ace of Spades so to speak. It was time to keep His promise to Ishmael ie raise them to greatness. And thus was brought upon this world the greatest human being ever to walk the earth...the prophet Muhammad s.a.w to be the Seal of the Prophets. Of course some references to his arrival were camouflaged by the gospel writers. Some, mind you, not all. That is why famous Muslim comparative relgiion experts like the late Ahmad Deedat and Dr. Zakir Naik were able to unreveal the parts in the gospels where it still mentioned the Prophet;s arrival. The arabs should be the ones to be rightfully aggrieved that their forefather Ishmael was shamefully relegated and downgraded in the bible.
Do you know why there were Jewish tribes living in Medina around the time of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w arrival on this earth? It was because their learned men had studied their scriptures and the prophecy was that the messiah the jews were waiting for would be born somewhere in the land of Arabia. They settled there to await the messiah's arrival, confident that the Promised One would be jewish, but of course. Of course, when it turned out the Promised Messiah was Arab, they couldn't handle it. Their pride took a dent and they refused to accept this 'humilation' to their race. After all, weren't they the so-called 'chosen people'? To think that the Last and Greatest of all the Prophets should emerge from their less illustrous bethren, the arabs..Outrageous! What utter humiliation! What they failed or refused to acknowledge was that God was only fulfilling His promise to Abraham and Ishmael. There were of course some from those jewish tribes that recognise the signs and embrace Islam and the prophet,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
Also, why Jesus, born of a virgin, by divine intervention is less important than the mortal Mohammed? Or was Mohammed born of a virgin too to quantify the status of prophetic equality?
Ohhh? If you were use that analogy then my remark would be " Then Adam a.s is greater than Jesus a.s as Adam's a.s creation was even more miraculous! Born without a father and a mother! How about Melchizedec, King of Salem? Also born without father and mother. Is this character then greater than Jesus or Moses or David?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
If only Mohammed were co-operative, he would have become a Pope or at least an anti-Pope . Imagine the massive amount of power from Britain to Afghanistan under one Pope. .
Lamatine in his book 'HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277 best sums it up :
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls. . . his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
[SIZE=2]"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"
[/SIZE]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
Each time I think of Islam, I can't help but put my mind to metallurgy. Concepts like alloys, amalgamation and the like. And the metallurgist always argues that his alloy rocks and surpasses the combined positives of the ingredient metals.
when I see posts like yours, unyielding based not on facts or calm reasoning I am reminded, not of metal, but of stone. Cold, hard, Not able or unwilling to reason stone. The Quran puts it better : And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.

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Old 03-16-2009, 12:56 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 4,099,393 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Quite a number are open...while others seem to have their zippers stuck on closed

Sometimes it's good not to have an open mind. It might get filled with some really bad stuff. We should be willing to look at other viewpoints...but be discerning about it.
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Old 03-16-2009, 12:58 PM
 
40,168 posts, read 26,797,761 times
Reputation: 6056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
LOL.

I don't really know of your ideology. But here is what I have raised within myself. And I have been a student of history since my youngest years. I have studied European, Byzantine and Arab histories, particularly stressed on religion.

The creation of Islam was purely political, unlike Judaism or Christianity which were conceptually based on the idea of God the father/resurrection. Islam was born much later and it effectively reaches out to the same God the Father. Allah is nothing but "God" in Arabic. They reverse engineered the concept and tagged a new language to it.

Hundreds of years after Judaism and Jesus comes Islam. And following the exploits of Mohammed, one can see the sheer politics behind his religion. It's all about rallying the Arabs and making them into one political unit in the name of God.

The very existence of Jesus and Mary in the Quran is testimony to the fact that they plagiarized the existing Greek/Hebrew texts which were circulating around the time.

The only reason why Jesus was downgraded to the status of Prophet was that he was a Jew.

Also, why Jesus, born of a virgin, by divine intervention is less important than the mortal Mohammed? Or was Mohammed born of a virgin too to quantify the status of prophetic equality?

If only Mohammed were co-operative, he would have become a Pope or at least an anti-Pope . Imagine the massive amount of power from Britain to Afghanistan under one Pope.

He missed an opportunity.

Each time I think of Islam, I can't help but put my mind to metallurgy. Concepts like alloys, amalgamation and the like. And the metallurgist always argues that his alloy rocks and surpasses the combined positives of the ingredient metals.
Well said, Colossus . . . pure sibling rivalry between the bondswoman's descendants and the real wife's descendants. The likeliest explanation for the angel that appeared to Mohammad is Satan (angel of light) capitalizing on the jealousy and sibling rivalry (negative emotions and animus) inherent in the situation.
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Old 03-16-2009, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,592,462 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
My friend...somehow i find that hard to believe. Even if that were true, you came in studying with your mindset/ideology of the trinity already set so that to me disqualify you from being an objective student of the subjects you profess. What texts were you studying from? Were you allowed to color the big black&white drawings that comes in those books?



Purely political? This just confirms my suspicions about you being a Grade A student in history. Are you sure you didn't take a course in "Alternate History in the Marvel/DC Universe" by mistake?
Pray tell where in Judaism there is mention of the Trinity? In fact, Jesus is better treated in Islamic culture than he ever was by his own tribe. Islam has been around since the beginning of Adam. Do you actually know what Muslim mean? Muslim means submission to God and thus those who submit to God and accept his prophets are called Muslims. Abraham was a muslim because he submitted to God as was Moses and Aaron and yes.. Jesus too. Moses,Aaron etc were jews by race but muslims by religion. Abraham was a Caanite.Do you get what I'm trying to convey?
Islam is not named or fixed after a particular prophet such as Judaism is to Judah or Christianity to Jesus. There is no Mohammadism. Don't you think Allah or Yhweh is a better word than God? Because with God, if you tag dess after it, the word become Goddess - a female god or with just an 's' the word become Gods or Goddessess - many gods...Where God is Only, neither male nor female.
Islam is not a new religion 'born' after. It is a natural progression to rectify the errors and corruption that had crept up in the earlier versions of God's Holy Books ie the Torah and the Bible.
I don't know man...its lucky you did not take this as a college course or something like that because you would have definately gotten an 'F' and flunked



Politics again!..No my friend, its not just politics. With the directions from God Almighty, Muhammad s.a.w led his people out from the darkness into the light of monoethism. He transformed them from a culture where blood vendettas, treatment of women as mere sex objects, killing of infant daughters into a culture where honour and respect and piety is some of the characteristics to be desired. You do not get it, its sad. You see..Islam is much more than a weekend religion where you pray only on Sundays and the rest of the week you prey on your fellows. It incoporates everything - from social to law to politics to family life. It is a way of life. You don't just think about God on Sundays but everyday. From the time you wake up until the time you sleep.



What existing text were there then? There was no Arabic bible at that time. There is always that arguments that the Quran was plagiarizing Greek material but if that was so, then why did it not plagiarize completely? There are many instances where the Quran seemingly goes against Greek doctrine/thinking of that time when by right it should have agreed completely with those thinkings. Especially with regards to science where only now has science reach to a level where it is able to verify and substantiate verses in the Quran which allude to scientific principles and up till now there is not one 'scientific' verse in the Quran which goes against modern science. Surely an unlettered man like Muhammad s.a.w could not be the author.



Downgraded because he was a jew? Oh jeez..what about Moses, David, Solomon then? That is just silly hypothesis. In fact, the arabs can justifiably claim to be getting the short end of the stick. Why? Its because they share the same father as the jews in Abraham. God had promised to Abraham greatness for both Ishmael's & Isaac's descendants. (Its in the bible you know) Well...the long line of prophets right up to Jesus, that emerge from Isaac testfies to God's keeping his end of the bargain to the jews though sadly the children of Israel kept straying from the true path and did not kept their end of the deal. So after the last messenger, Jesus was betrayed by the pharisees and his teachings were slowly being distorted by another jew, a guy named Saul aka Paul, God played his trump card, the Ace of Spades so to speak. It was time to keep His promise to Ishmael ie raise them to greatness. And thus was brought upon this world the greatest human being ever to walk the earth...the prophet Muhammad s.a.w to be the Seal of the Prophets. Of course some references to his arrival were camouflaged by the gospel writers. Some, mind you, not all. That is why famous Muslim comparative relgiion experts like the late Ahmad Deedat and Dr. Zakir Naik were able to unreveal the parts in the gospels where it still mentioned the Prophet;s arrival. The arabs should be the ones to be rightfully aggrieved that their forefather Ishmael was shamefully relegated and downgraded in the bible.
Do you know why there were Jewish tribes living in Medina around the time of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w arrival on this earth? It was because their learned men had studied their scriptures and the prophecy was that the messiah the jews were waiting for would be born somewhere in the land of Arabia. They settled there to await the messiah's arrival, confident that the Promised One would be jewish, but of course. Of course, when it turned out the Promised Messiah was Arab, they couldn't handle it. Their pride took a dent and they refused to accept this 'humilation' to their race. After all, weren't they the so-called 'chosen people'? To think that the Last and Greatest of all the Prophets should emerge from their less illustrous bethren, the arabs..Outrageous! What utter humiliation! What they failed or refused to acknowledge was that God was only fulfilling His promise to Abraham and Ishmael. There were of course some from those jewish tribes that recognise the signs and embrace Islam and the prophet,



Ohhh? If you were use that analogy then my remark would be " Then Adam a.s is greater than Jesus a.s as Adam's a.s creation was even more miraculous! Born without a father and a mother! How about Melchizedec, King of Salem? Also born without father and mother. Is this character then greater than Jesus or Moses or David?



Lamatine in his book 'HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277 best sums it up :
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls. . . his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
[SIZE=2]"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"
[/SIZE]




when I see posts like yours, unyielding based not on facts or calm reasoning I am reminded, not of metal, but of stone. Cold, hard, Not able or unwilling to reason stone. The Quran puts it better : And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.

man, I feel like that frog dissected on the wooden board. Are you finished?
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Old 03-16-2009, 01:15 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,202,780 times
Reputation: 117
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Well said, Colossus . . . pure sibling rivalry between the bondswoman's descendants and the real wife's descendants. The likeliest explanation for the angel that appeared to Mohammad is Satan (angel of light) capitalizing on the jealousy and sibling rivalry (negative emotions and animus) inherent in the situation.
May God forgive you for casting aspersions on the Prophet that is called God's Friend - the Prophet Abraham a.s. Hagar was descended from Egyptian royalty and despite your aspersions..she was legally married to Abraham a.s and thus deserves the title of wife of Abraham a.s Thus the Prophet Ishamel a.s was a legitimate child of Abraham a.s and was the only child of Abraham and he was the son commanded by God to Abraham to make the ritual sacrifice. Look it up in your bible..it quote Isaac but yet mentioned only chiild. At the time of the ritual Isaac was not even born yet! So you can see that the only jealousy or rivalry that existed was that of the jewish scribes who purposely edited the gosples of that era to reflect their prejudices!

You say that the Angel who appeared before Prophet Muhammad s.a.w was satan? Could it also be satan then that supposedly disguised his voice and never showed himself to Paul and yet claimed to be Jesus and taught him the tenets of the trinity? I mean, all this while, messengers were sent down to shephard the flock and now we are supposed to believe that Jesus was the exception to the norm? We have to accept the words of a a man who had never met Jesus much less walk his path In saying all that, you are indirectly saying that the Quran is from satan. Pray tell, would satan sanction a book that has the faithful sought God's refuge from the accursed satan before reciting any verses from the Quran?
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