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Old 03-16-2009, 01:29 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus_Antonis View Post
man, I feel like that frog dissected on the wooden board. Are you finished?
Well my friend...its better to be dissected here on this temporary abode called the Earth than to be standing on the scales of justice and have God ask you why you pray to a human being and not to Him, the sole Lord of the Universe.
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Old 03-16-2009, 01:47 PM
 
40,056 posts, read 26,739,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
May God forgive you for casting aspersions on the Prophet that is called God's Friend - the Prophet Abraham a.s. Hagar was descended from Egyptian royalty and despite your aspersions..she was legally married to Abraham a.s and thus deserves the title of wife of Abraham a.s Thus the Prophet Ishamel a.s was a legitimate child of Abraham a.s and was the only child of Abraham and he was the son commanded by God to Abraham to make the ritual sacrifice. Look it up in your bible..it quote Isaac but yet mentioned only chiild. At the time of the ritual Isaac was not even born yet! So you can see that the only jealousy or rivalry that existed was that of the jewish scribes who purposely edited the gosples of that era to reflect their prejudices!
I take no sides in this rivalry . . . only note its existence and the negative emotions that drive it. You seem to have the timing wrong for the existence of the explanations . . . which is why you misattribute the jealousy motivations. The Christian version predated the Muslim by centuries. Who was jealous of who? Who needed to produce their own "messiah" (or prophet) to counter whose?
Quote:
You say that the Angel who appeared before Prophet Muhammad s.a.w was satan? Could it also be satan then that supposedly disguised his voice and never showed himself to Paul and yet claimed to be Jesus and taught him the tenets of the trinity? I mean, all this while, messengers were sent down to shephard the flock and now we are supposed to believe that Jesus was the exception to the norm? We have to accept the words of a a man who had never met Jesus much less walk his path In saying all that, you are indirectly saying that the Quran is from satan. Pray tell, would satan sanction a book that has the faithful sought God's refuge from the accursed satan before reciting any verses from the Quran?
All I am saying is . . . there is far more negative motivation to plagiarize the existing jewish-derived version proclaiming descendence from Isaac with one changed to reflect descendence from Ishmael . . . the timing is all wrong for the reverse to have taken place. I make no claims about the origins of the Qu'ran . . . only about the scriptures proclaiming the Christ . . . many of which have been fulfilled for millennia now.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I take no sides in this rivalry . . . only note its existence and the negative emotions that drive it. You seem to have the timing wrong for the existence of the explanations . . . which is why you misattribute the jealousy motivations. The Christian version predated the Muslim by centuries. Who was jealous of who? Who needed to produce their own "messiah" (or prophet) to counter whose?All I am saying is . . . there is far more negative motivation to plagiarize the existing jewish-derived version proclaiming descendence from Isaac with one changed to reflect descendence from Ishmael . . . the timing is all wrong for the reverse to have taken place. I make no claims about the origins of the Qu'ran . . . only about the scriptures proclaiming the Christ . . . many of which have been fulfilled for millennia now.
You take sides yet try to hide under the cloak of impartiality? Your mischeavous suggestion of satan being the angel that confronted the prophet Muhammad s.a.w confirms that. Explain then why the bible says the only child of Abraham for sacrifice and yet says it was Isaac? Only human hands can be responsible for such contradictions..
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:08 PM
 
40,056 posts, read 26,739,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
You take sides yet try to hide under the cloak of impartiality? Your mischeavous suggestion of satan being the angel that confronted the prophet Muhammad s.a.w confirms that.
Jealousy (and sibling rivalry) are the result of negative emotions . . . those are NOT of God . . . to what origin would you attribute them?
Quote:
Explain then why the bible says the only child of Abraham for sacrifice and yet says it was Isaac? Only human hands can be responsible for such contradictions..
Bastards were not recognized as legitimate offspring. Sarah was Abraham's wife . . . not the bondswoman.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,372,762 times
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Red face "Oooommmmm..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
May God forgive you for casting aspersions on the Prophet that is called God's Friend -
My my! Here I be, defending my arch-rival Mystic. He who only seeks to clarify, to point out some of the obvious inconsistencies of the fallible authors of old. After all, they didn't have spell-check, grammar-check or even fable-check!

I particularly enjoyed the quick lesson in Islam versus J/C allegory/myth/fables provided by Collossus. It's a wonderful quicky summarization, and quite apt! Also quite enlightening and not only that, it "fits" the historical behavior of both warring factions so well.

I personally give Islam credit for accepting, even encouraging, science. They had a part in many early discoveries, after all, and remain unafraid of new knowledge. Unlike the dedicated fundy Christians, who remain terrified of myth-threatening facts. Too many examples to cite on this thread.

Good thing the Buddhists are smart enough to stay outa this one. When no-one's left standing, they stand to inherit it all!

Imagine! A non-proselytizing, non-greed-based religion that rightfully honors all living things, and doesn't put man on an undeserved pedestal!

Perhaps that's why they're still poor, yet so very honorable?
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:28 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Good thing the Buddhists are smart enough to stay outa this one. When no-one's left standing, they stand to inherit it all!

Imagine! A non-proselytizing, non-greed-based religion that rightfully honors all living things, and doesn't put man on an undeserved pedestal!

Perhaps that's why they're still poor, yet so very honorable?
Hehehe...You should see some of the monks in my neighbourhood....Some of them wear Rolexes
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:37 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Jealousy (and sibling rivalry) are the result of negative emotions . . . those are NOT of God . . . to what origin would you attribute them? .
Yes...those negative emotions are not of God's but that of men. Perhaps men of letters who read and understand the hidden prophecies but could not accept that future greatness will befall not onto their tribe but rather onto their (back then) less illustrious sibling tribes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Bastards were not recognized as legitimate offspring. Sarah was Abraham's wife . . . not the bondswoman.
May God have mercy on you. You are in effect saying that the noble prophet Abraham a.s had a mistress! You smear the name of Abraham's son Ishmael a.s who was also a prophet. Abraham a.s was legally married. But then i would expect no less from you since you, I am sure also believe that David a,s had an adulterous affair and had his general murdered and that Solomon a.s died in sin and that the prophet Lot a.s committed incest with his daughters... All these negative attributes and actions...these are not the attributes of God's messengers/prophets. You are in effect saying that God had lapses of judgement
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,562,103 times
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Holy Cow. Did I just read from the latest convert to Islam?

Anyway, here goes.

Were you allowed to color the big black&white drawings that comes in those books?
That was funny. I admit it. Your sense of humour is one of a kind.

Pray tell where in Judaism there is mention of the Trinity? In fact, Jesus is better treated in Islamic culture than he ever was by his own tribe. Islam has been around since the beginning of Adam. Do you actually know what Muslim mean? Muslim means submission to God and thus those who submit to God and accept his prophets are called Muslims.
Are you serious? Jesus didn't predate Judaism. There's no question of trinity among the "tribe" which did the passover and kept the sabbath.

And I'd very interested to know if Adam "submitted himself" to God more than Eve and her fruit.

And let's go by your game. Homosexuality has been around since the age of the Greeks and even before. Please tell me they considered themselves as homosexual as the homosexuals of today.

And better treated in Islamic culture? For God's sake, if this were true, the crusades would never have happened, right? Does better treatment account for demolitions, desecration of the holy sepulchre, vandalization of pilgrims?

Abraham was a muslim because he submitted to God as was Moses and Aaron and yes.. Jesus too. Moses,Aaron etc were jews by race but muslims by religion. Abraham was a Caanite.Do you get what I'm trying to convey?
Why not Noah? I am sure he submitted to God and built the Ark. Right, Ishmael does not exist yet. I am pretty sure you will shift the co-ordinates to Noah had Ishmael been on the Ark amongst Noah's sons. You pretty much have your quadrant all right, mate

Islam is not named or fixed after a particular prophet such as Judaism is to Judah or Christianity to Jesus. There is no Mohammadism. Don't you think Allah or Yhweh is a better word than God? Because with God, if you tag dess after it, the word become Goddess - a female god or with just an 's' the word become Gods or Goddessess - many gods...Where God is Only, neither male nor female.
You plagiarize again. Just like Mohammed. I am pretty sure where I heard this before. There's this lanky, spexed guy on youtube who gives away ridiculous discourses. Again, the same gibber on God, goddess, Gods. You and him both have got the fundamental concept wrong.

The English language has parts of speech. You have nouns, verbs, adjectives etc. The English language is as much pagan as its parents - greek, latin, sanskrit, saraswati script and the whole nine yards. Christianity was taken to England by the likes of Augustine and the language is certainly not gonna get radical about gender/quantity.

Grammar is human, it's not divine and it's still grammar, God is masculine, Goddess is feminine. Going by your logic, it looks like you will root for the abolition of the word 'dog' for it's a mirror image of God?

With the directions from God Almighty, Muhammad s.a.w led his people out from the darkness into the light of monoethism. He transformed them from a culture where blood vendettas, treatment of women as mere sex objects, killing of infant daughters into a culture where honour and respect and piety is some of the characteristics to be desired.
I wonder how God who loves all his children, can pit one of his sons against another. Frankly I find the concept of God, the loving father of all, sending his own son into the earth, who in turn kills himself, rather than leading the people into the light from the darkness "by the bloody sword", more convincing.

You can quote whatever you want but the bottom line is that Mohammed was a politician. He commanded armies, he killed people (good or bad), he did anything and everything which any worldly commander did. I can easily tell he was the prototype of someone like yasser arafat. Yasser was everything Mohammad was. He was a leader/ he was a commander/ he was hyper-religious of course, he hated the jews, he killed people. Some call yasser a terrorist. How different is Mohammed? If Yasser gets a time machine, he can be Mohammed.

What existing text were there then? There was no Arabic bible at that time. There is always that arguments that the Quran was plagiarizing Greek material but if that was so, then why did it not plagiarize completely?
Naive people perform an exact copy. Everybody knows that.

Downgraded because he was a jew? Oh jeez..what about Moses, David, Solomon then? That is just silly hypothesis. In fact, the arabs can justifiably claim to be getting the short end of the stick. Why? Its because they share the same father as the jews in Abraham. God had promised to Abraham greatness for both Ishmael's & Isaac's descendants. (Its in the bible you know) Well...the long line of prophets right up to Jesus, that emerge from Isaac testfies to God's keeping his end of the bargain to the jews though sadly the children of Israel kept straying from the true path and did not kept their end of the deal. So after the last messenger, Jesus was betrayed by the pharisees and his teachings were slowly being distorted by another jew, a guy named Saul aka Paul, God played his trump card, the Ace of Spades so to speak. It was time to keep His promise to Ishmael ie raise them to greatness. And thus was brought upon this world the greatest human being ever to walk the earth...the prophet Muhammad s.a.w to be the Seal of the Prophets. Of course some references to his arrival were camouflaged by the gospel writers. Some, mind you, not all. That is why famous Muslim comparative relgiion experts like the late Ahmad Deedat and Dr. Zakir Naik were able to unreveal the parts in the gospels where it still mentioned the Prophet;s arrival. The arabs should be the ones to be rightfully aggrieved that their forefather Ishmael was shamefully relegated and downgraded in the bible.
Do you know why there were Jewish tribes living in Medina around the time of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w arrival on this earth? It was because their learned men had studied their scriptures and the prophecy was that the messiah the jews were waiting for would be born somewhere in the land of Arabia. They settled there to await the messiah's arrival, confident that the Promised One would be jewish, but of course. Of course, when it turned out the Promised Messiah was Arab, they couldn't handle it. Their pride took a dent and they refused to accept this 'humilation' to their race. After all, weren't they the so-called 'chosen people'? To think that the Last and Greatest of all the Prophets should emerge from their less illustrous bethren, the arabs..Outrageous! What utter humiliation! What they failed or refused to acknowledge was that God was only fulfilling His promise to Abraham and Ishmael. There were of course some from those jewish tribes that recognise the signs and embrace Islam and the prophet,

I think I just read the Islamic version of Mein Kampf Lite.

Ohhh? If you were use that analogy then my remark would be " Then Adam a.s is greater than Jesus a.s as Adam's a.s creation was even more miraculous! Born without a father and a mother! How about Melchizedec, King of Salem? Also born without father and mother. Is this character then greater than Jesus or Moses or David?
Adam? What was even the need for Jesus had Adam been greater? He'd have disciplined Eve and have been a jew-hating Mohammed in his own right

Jesus was no creation. God cannot be a creation.

when I see posts like yours, unyielding based not on facts or calm reasoning I am reminded, not of metal, but of stone. Cold, hard, Not able or unwilling to reason stone. The Quran puts it better : And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
Considering that you and I call out to the same God the Father, I am pretty sure I will be forgiven if you term me as being prodigally un-Islamic.

Besides, I'd prefer Jesus Christ any day to a militarist, despotic, polygamist, manipulative, God-calling impostor. The crusaders said let's go kill in the name of God. Mohammed and his followers said let's go kill in the name of God. Both of them have blood on their hands. Remember Dante's circle for fake prophets?

Sermon on the mount, fish and bread, Lazarus, miracles, love, forgiveness, humility, sacrifice, YES.

Politics, sword, armies, factions, wine, wives, concubines, ethnic cleansing, sectarian slaughter, no thanks!
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Old 03-16-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
I'm sorry Shawn but where is the proof that it was Jesus a.s on the cross. If the guy was Jesus a.s why then did he cry out "Eli Eli La Ma Sabaktani" (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?) He is God and he is asking himself? He doesn't know the plan? The truth of the matter is that Most scholars date the earliest New Testament books as being written 25-30 years after the supposed death of Jesus. Nobody knows who wrote the Bible. Several books are attributed to certain authors, but many of these are false attributions, and many books had multiple authors.

I'm sorry yet again but what mission did Jesus a.s fulfilled? He was cut short in his prime (if you believe that it was him on the cross) What you are practising now is more to the teachings of one Saul later named Paul. A person who has never met Jesus a.s in person and thus not one of his 12 apostles.

Yes Muhammad s.a.w died - as did all of God's other messengers such as Moses, Joseph, Abraham etc. They are Men like us, only sinless as should be ones who were chosen by the Creator to lead the flock.

Muhammad s.a.w never did anything on the scale of Jesus a.s? That is laughable He was supremely successful on the spiritual, social, political,religious scale. In so short a time, Muhammad s.a.w and until his death, Islam reached out to all 4 corners of the world and currently has about 1.5billion believers worldwide. Unlike Jesus, where there is no really clear cut picture of his life, there are many historical records about the last prophet so one gets a clear picture of the way he leads his life. We know virtually everything about this wonderful man, his family, his companions etc. There maybe also 1+ billion christians but how many are really practising christians? - ie go to church, pray etc.

An interesting note :In Islam, during the daily 5 prayers it is compulsory to recite the acknowledgment of Allah being the Sole Lord and that Muhammad s.a.w is the final prophet of God. If one does not recite that then one's prayers are invalid. So even as we debate now, somewhere in this wide world, the call to prayer has been sounded and the faithful are preparing or indeed praying right now and reciting the kalimah that There is only One God and Muhammad is His Messenger. And when that timezone is passed, the call to prayer will yet again sound out at a different timezone and this will keep going on as the earth turns on its axis till the end of time! Thus fulfilling God's promise to Muhammad s.a.w.

THe proof is in the bible and what Jesus promised what we would receive when he rose, if you don't know what that promise is, then look it up. I have received His promise as well as others.

What is your proof that it was not Yahshua on the cross, I take it that you don't have any?

It funny that you say that there is not clear cut proof of Yahshua, but the proof is people who argue over who He was. That is the proof in it self. When Yahshua's name is brought up, it starts arguement because of who He claimed to be, unlike Muhammad who many just think of a guy in a cave who heard heard from an angel.

But anyway, I'm really tired of talking about muhammad who clearly means nothing to me, unlike Yahshua. I see muhammad as a false prophet as well as other. But many just don't see Yahshua as God, but He is who He says that He is.
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Old 03-16-2009, 04:54 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,736 times
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Originally Posted by shawn_2828 View Post
THe proof is in the bible and what Jesus promised what we would receive when he rose, if you don't know what that promise is, then look it up. I have received His promise as well as others.

What is your proof that it was not Yahshua on the cross, I take it that you don't have any?

It funny that you say that there is not clear cut proof of Yahshua, but the proof is people who argue over who He was. That is the proof in it self. When Yahshua's name is brought up, it starts arguement because of who He claimed to be, unlike Muhammad who many just think of a guy in a cave who heard heard from an angel.

But anyway, I'm really tired of talking about muhammad who clearly means nothing to me, unlike Yahshua. I see muhammad as a false prophet as well as other. But many just don't see Yahshua as God, but He is who He says that He is.
You might think that Muhammad s.a.w was just a guy in a cave but a billion of us beg to differ. Of course you put us in a difficult position because you can slander the Prophet all you want but we can't do the same to Jesus because it is a part of our faith that we must accept and love Jesus as one God's chosen prophet. But that is alright. God has already promised success to the Last Messenger. Part of that is already played out with his name being praised alongside God 24 hrs a day/7 days a week/365 days a year all round the world.
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