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Old 04-03-2009, 02:31 PM
 
1,115 posts, read 2,853,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I love this line of reasoning. How is that these things turn into an opportunity to somehow put Christians and Christianity in thier place? It is either 'oh christians do it so Islam is not bad' or it is 'yeah Islam is crazy and barbaric but oh do not forget about Christians either.' Why do you seem to hijack threads and twist it into you little hate speach against Christians? Oh and that goes for Mystic to - comparing fundimentalists as Nazi's and the Taliban - Please.

There is a huge difference between not only the theology of Islam and Christianity but Militant Islamic Jurisprudence and Christian societies. Both of you should be ashamed of yourself for such a comparison. And don't bring up something that happened a 1000 0r 4000 yrs ago. The point is how hypocritical you guys are in talking about the barbaric aspects of modern Islam by basically ignoring it or making some little remark but then taking the opportunity to poke at Christianity. God forbid that you would say as much as you do about Christains on these threads as well as Isalm, but once you get the opportunity to do so it just turns into another way in which you can hate on Christianity. It is qiut pathetic and sickening frankly.
I brought it up because I always see Christians saying bigotted things about Islam with a superiority complex, yet their beliefs are very, very similar. They are both Abrahamic religions after all. The main differences between the two are cultural, not religious.

Personally I think both sides are equally crazy.

This particular forum is FULL of Christians. There are not many Muslems. I do not see many Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Bahais, New Agers, Pagans, or others talking about their beliefs too much here. It is Christian dominated. This forum isn't really focused on spirituality, it's more like a Christian debate. That's what it looks like to me.

If this forum was full of Muslems, then I would focus on that religion here, but it's not. I'm just going with the flow of things.
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:33 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,633,699 times
Reputation: 1860
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The comparison was on ONE characteristic only . . . OBEDIENCE to authority for its own sake as a virtue . . . no other characteristics were involved. The post I responded to saw it as virtuous . . . I chose a very un-virtuous example of it . . . that's all. I have little respect for OBEYERS . . . just for obedience sake. The reason for and purpose of rules and laws should always be the overriding driver of compliance . . . so that appropriate decisions about the obedience can be made in each unique circumstance.I do not hate Christianity . . . I love Christ and Christ's message. I do despise "Bibleanity" and what fundamentalists have done to distort and twist Jesus Christ's beautiful message and example of love . . . into a sick, twisted, fearful, hateful, intolerant, dogma-driven, blind obedience to simplistic readings and interpretations of ancient scriptures written by primitive savages. Ask me how I really feel!
Where are these horrible 'christian' people Mystic? Do you think I am one of them because I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, believe in a God of Justice, and mankind as in need of Salvation because of their sin? I am this person because I do not believe in your Dogma of God being the universe itself? What is 'Bibeanity' anyway? Jesu did talk about sin, death, and hell Mystic not just love. Are the two mutually exclusive? Is that your dogma?
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:56 PM
 
40,039 posts, read 26,720,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Where are these horrible 'christian' people Mystic? Do you think I am one of them because I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, believe in a God of Justice, and mankind as in need of Salvation because of their sin? I am this person because I do not believe in your Dogma of God being the universe itself? What is 'Bibeanity' anyway? Jesu did talk about sin, death, and hell Mystic not just love. Are the two mutually exclusive? Is that your dogma?
Sin death and hell are real . . . and there are consequences for our failure to develop and mature spiritually . . . as there are for all failures. What those failures are NOT is punishment from an angry and wrathful God. They are consequences of failure, period. God wants ALL of us to avoid them because He loves us ALL . . . so Jesus has paved the Way for us to be successful without having to be PERFECT . . . because He is perfect and now has been reborn (resurrected) as Spirit and is available to ALL of us as the Holy Spirit to guide us in love of God and each other. Love is the answer . . . not fear and obedience to some Nazi-like God of wrath and vengeance!
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:38 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,633,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sin death and hell are real . . . and there are consequences for our failure to develop and mature spiritually . . . as there are for all failures. What those failures are NOT is punishment from an angry and wrathful God. They are consequences of failure, period. God wants ALL of us to avoid them because He loves us ALL . . . so Jesus has paved the Way for us to be successful without having to be PERFECT . . . because He is perfect and now has been reborn (resurrected) as Spirit and is available to ALL of us as the Holy Spirit to guide us in love of God and each other. Love is the answer . . . not fear and obedience to some Nazi-like God of wrath and vengeance!
Mystic, how is sin, death, and hell (in the view of Jesus) not justified by anger, wrath, and punishment? It seems you have a reductionist view of these terms robbing them of their moral and contexual and historical meaning (Jesus's meaning) from the text. God has a right to punish sin and be angry over it. Yes he gave us His Son so that we would be able to avoid such a fate but the fate is real and so is God's anger over those whom he created when they violate His Holy Standards. As Jesus said Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into HELL. If sin is just some absract undefined failure to grow or be enlightened then what value was the punishment of Jesus for that sin. Jesus did not just die so we could be something he died so we could have the penalty of sin removed from being brought upon ourselves. Read Rom.5 If you are not in Christ you are still in Adam and as Christ said you will die in your sin if you do not believe that he is Son of God who takes away the sin of the world.
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:43 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,990,486 times
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NYTimes blog:

Women Erased in Israel, Flogged in Pakistan and Restricted in Afghanistan - The Lede Blog - NYTimes.com
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:54 PM
 
40,039 posts, read 26,720,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mystic, how is sin, death, and hell (in the view of Jesus) not justified by anger, wrath, and punishment? It seems you have a reductionist view of these terms robbing them of their moral and contexual and historical meaning (Jesus's meaning) from the text. God has a right to punish sin and be angry over it. Yes he gave us His Son so that we would be able to avoid such a fate but the fate is real and so is God's anger over those whom he created when they violate His Holy Standards. As Jesus said Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into HELL. If sin is just some absract undefined failure to grow or be enlightened then what value was the punishment of Jesus for that sin. Jesus did not just die so we could be something he died so we could have the penalty of sin removed from being brought upon ourselves. Read Rom.5 If you are not in Christ you are still in Adam and as Christ said you will die in your sin if you do not believe that he is Son of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus takes away the sin of the world by establishing the resonance with God (perfect) that is necessary for human beings to be reborn as Spirit and be with God. Our acceptance of His guidance as Holy Spirit insures that we will have sufficient resonance (not perfect) with God through Jesus in love. Some human had to do this for the entire species to be saved from failure (imperfection). There was no punishment from God required for Jesus . . . but there was an inevitable consequence from the barbaric humankind Jesus was sent to teach and demonstrate the TRUE NATURE of God to. Both the Father and the Son KNEW what we sinful humans would do to Him and allowed it . . . to provide an unambiguous and unequivocal example of God's love for us despite what we did to Him (WITHOUT exhibiting any wrath and vengeance!)

His dying was necessary to leave the human form and be reborn as Spirit . . . as we are supposed to be as well. His Spirit remains part of our reality to provide guidance to achieve the necessary spiritual maturity to be reborn as Spirit at our death. NONE of it involved punishment for ANYTHING! . . . just the creation of a Way for us to join God. It is human ignorance and confused interpretations that concluded . . . since God knew about it and Jesus knew about it . . . God required it as punishment . . . instead of as an example of a loving understanding and acceptance of our sinfulness and ignorance from our spiritual immaturity . . . "Forgive them they know not what they do."

Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-03-2009 at 04:10 PM..
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Old 04-03-2009, 04:32 PM
 
32,418 posts, read 17,758,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Taliban hand out 37 lashes to girl seen with married man | World news | guardian.co.uk
The video was put out by the Taliban. The video is of a 17 year old girl who left the house with someone who was not a male relative. They said they do the same if they catch a woman shopping and not dressed appropriately. Tell me again why any woman would marry into islam or convert to islam?
The taliban does not represent all of Islam, same as different christian denominations rail against each other for whatever types of behavior they don't see eye to eye on. There is a wide variation of christian behavior in the US and obviously the Taliban are the extreme of the mulim world.

There was a documentary on either NatGeo/History or Discovery channel about muslims in Afghanistan who were upset about the Talban moving into their providence and wanting to "make their world like it was the year 1400 again. Sorry, I can't remember the show, so no link can be cited.

The point is you ask why would any woman marry into islam and convert, when it should be obvious the Taliban are just one part of the whole picture. And not all islamic people share their ways.

An analogy would be to ask why would any woman want to marry into christianity.. blah blah because a video depicted some (as an example) Baptists dancing with snakes at a backwoods tent revival and allowing snakes to bite them because of some verse in the bible that they take literally.
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:20 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,990,486 times
Reputation: 1199
It would be fair to point out that many Pakistanis have openly protested against the incident:
Video of Taliban flogging girl draws anger in Pakistan - Los Angeles Times

It would be interesting to see if there are protests by muslim women in theocratic muslim countries. At the very least, muslim women (and men) in the west should protest - because they easily can.

Last edited by calmdude; 04-03-2009 at 07:49 PM..
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:34 PM
 
Location: SoCal - Sherman Oaks & Woodland Hills
12,977 posts, read 29,637,932 times
Reputation: 10491
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Taliban hand out 37 lashes to girl seen with married man | World news | guardian.co.uk
The video was put out by the Taliban. The video is of a 17 year old girl who left the house with someone who was not a male relative. They said they do the same if they catch a woman shopping and not dressed appropriately. Tell me again why any woman would marry into islam or convert to islam?
Sailordave, I think you really need to educate yourself on Islam because you obviously do not know anything about it. Or, maybe you just want to continue to be ignorant about it and post things like this that maybe only 1% of those who practice this faith in the entire world do. You do know that almost all other Islamic country (even those who are friends and allies with the U.S.) oppose almost all that the Taliban (who are no longer in power in Afganistan) stand for and do. Do you know that?
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:07 PM
 
4,380 posts, read 2,930,590 times
Reputation: 1431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mystic, how is sin, death, and hell (in the view of Jesus) not justified by anger, wrath, and punishment? It seems you have a reductionist view of these terms robbing them of their moral and contexual and historical meaning (Jesus's meaning) from the text. God has a right to punish sin and be angry over it. Yes he gave us His Son so that we would be able to avoid such a fate but the fate is real and so is God's anger over those whom he created when they violate His Holy Standards. As Jesus said Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into HELL. If sin is just some absract undefined failure to grow or be enlightened then what value was the punishment of Jesus for that sin. Jesus did not just die so we could be something he died so we could have the penalty of sin removed from being brought upon ourselves. Read Rom.5 If you are not in Christ you are still in Adam and as Christ said you will die in your sin if you do not believe that he is Son of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Funny that a person can believe all of this and still find fault with Moslem mis-deeds.
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