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Old 04-04-2009, 08:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyMonk View Post
Here is a good question.

Should they change? Are they really worse than us? Aren't they better in some ways? You say they are in the Middle Ages, this sounds ethnocentic and racist to me. What makes them any worse than Christians? If there was a Christian theocracy, it would probably be just as backwards and violent, correct?
Isn't it odd that human rights violations are taken very seriously, unless they are being done in muslim countries? Then it becomes a matter of 'culture' and 'are we any better'. The answer is very simple -- any culture/religion/country that treats its citizens like chattel, that promotes violence against women by encouraging their deaths for honor, that kills men for being gay, that kill women for being raped ...yes, that is bad. It is wrong, and it is a crime against all of humanity. And, living as a woman or a gay man in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia would be a living hell and much, much worse then living in the US where you are allowed to have opinions, as well not be killed for the convenience of your family.
You are right in one thing. A fundementalist christian theocracy would be just as bad for women. Funny how theocracies seem to be a pretty damn good place for straight men, though!
You all are going off the premise that Muslem countries are totally primitive and backwards. And in some countries they probably are. But in some ways these cultures have thier advantages. And I think we should watch out before we say that these ancient cultures are simply inferior.
Did I say that? Did I say that all of their culture was inferior? Being stoned/killed/lashed over honor though is not something that should be held up as wonderful. Neither should FGM. Or killing gay men. But I guess you would consider that a radical thought?
Overall, I think most of you have been brainwashed my the medias negative portrayel of Muslem countries, and your own religious biases cause prejudice towards them. They are not the children of God, they are heathens......
So am I -- and quite frankly I find it insulting that you would automatically assume that if a person objects to how women are treated they must be coming at the issue with christian bias. I had no idea that objecting to HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS constituted a religious viewpoint.
Have any of you even ever been to a Muslem country???????????????????? Some of you all sound like you probably dont even have a passport.
No, I can't say that I have. But so what? Does that make it impossible for me as a woman to see that my fellow women are being treated like chattel -- worse, actually.
I have been to one Muslem country, and it was not a very bad place. It was fairly liberal, and many people in the society were not Muslems.
Great -- but is that what I was talking about? Would you consider life as a woman under Taliban rule as fairly liberal? I certainly wouldn't.
I wouldn't want to live there myself. But it's their culture so let them figure it out. And each Muslem country is very different. Some Muslem counties are much better than others.
Gasp!! Did you just make a ... a..... judgement against entire muslim nations
The Abrahamic religions are all equally bad. Chrisianity, Judaism, Islam. They ar all breeding grounds for fanaticism, closed-mindedness and pig-faced conservatism.
What is your problem with what I wrote? Other then a knee jerk close-minded one, that is?
Here are MUSLIM WOMEN advocating change within their own country. What can you possibly see as wrong with that? Perhaps they should always live in subservience, degradation and in danger simply to bolster your views on moral relativism?
Again I say -- human rights violations are a crime regardless of where they occur or for what reasons they occur. Bride burning in India is wrong regardless of the overall beauty of their culture. Foot binding was wrong regardless of Chinas long history as scholars. If you cannot see that, then I would guess a new kind of fanaticism has been born, a subculture of fundementalist liberals who would see women die rather then admit that perhaps not all cultures are benign.
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Old 04-04-2009, 01:45 PM
 
1,115 posts, read 2,853,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
What is your problem with what I wrote? Other then a knee jerk close-minded one, that is?
Here are MUSLIM WOMEN advocating change within their own country. What can you possibly see as wrong with that? Perhaps they should always live in subservience, degradation and in danger simply to bolster your views on moral relativism?
Again I say -- human rights violations are a crime regardless of where they occur or for what reasons they occur. Bride burning in India is wrong regardless of the overall beauty of their culture. Foot binding was wrong regardless of Chinas long history as scholars. If you cannot see that, then I would guess a new kind of fanaticism has been born, a subculture of fundementalist liberals who would see women die rather then admit that perhaps not all cultures are benign.
What I am saying is that there are dozens of Muslem countries in this world, and some of them are really bad and need change. Countries like this that come to my mind are Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan..... the very conservative countries do have a lot of rather nasty stuff going on.

But some of them are not that bad. I spent some time in Malaysia which is a Muslem country and from what I saw it was a very good place. It was a Muslem country but people of other faiths were tolerated. It was a beautiful place full of nice people and the women did not seem to be controlled or abused.

I always see the broadbrush categorization of "Muslem countries" and it sounds so ignorant to me because each one is so different. It's a really simple-minded way of look at things to generalize so much.

The problem is not with Islam. The problem is with fanaticism and intolerance. Which is also pervasive in Christianity.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.
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Old 04-04-2009, 02:50 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,284,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyMonk View Post
What I am saying is that there are dozens of Muslem countries in this world, and some of them are really bad and need change. Countries like this that come to my mind are Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan..... the very conservative countries do have a lot of rather nasty stuff going on.

But some of them are not that bad. I spent some time in Malaysia which is a Muslem country and from what I saw it was a very good place. It was a Muslem country but people of other faiths were tolerated. It was a beautiful place full of nice people and the women did not seem to be controlled or abused.

I always see the broadbrush categorization of "Muslem countries" and it sounds so ignorant to me because each one is so different. It's a really simple-minded way of look at things to generalize so much.

The problem is not with Islam. The problem is with fanaticism and intolerance. Which is also pervasive in Christianity.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.
And just what glass house are you presuming I live in? In addition to the other presumptions you have made about me, including that I am christian and that I was debasing all muslim and all muslim countries.

Glass houses, indeed!
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Old 04-04-2009, 02:57 PM
 
1,115 posts, read 2,853,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
And just what glass house are you presuming I live in? In addition to the other presumptions you have made about me, including that I am christian and that I was debasing all muslim and all muslim countries.

Glass houses, indeed!
I am not speaking directly to you, you are not that important to me.

I'm speaking generally to everyone who is reading this, this is not a private conversation. There are thousands of people reading this.

And the glass house I speak of is the Christian or Jewish zealot who thinks he is superior to a Muslem zealot. The glass house is a Christian who wants to convert as many people as they can, they think their religion is God's one and only chosen path, and they would love to live in a homogenously Christian environment. Yet they have a problem with Islamic countries, which basically represent the same things that they advocate.
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:31 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,284,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyMonk View Post
I am not speaking directly to you, you are not that important to me.

I'm speaking generally to everyone who is reading this, this is not a private conversation. There are thousands of people reading this.

And the glass house I speak of is the Christian or Jewish zealot who thinks he is superior to a Muslem zealot. The glass house is a Christian who wants to convert as many people as they can, they think their religion is God's one and only chosen path, and they would love to live in a homogenously Christian environment. Yet they have a problem with Islamic countries, which basically represent the same things that they advocate.

Well, actually you are speaking to me when you are quoting a post of mine. It is this little thing called a 'thread'....
And if I am not that important to you, I can only presume (see? I can do it too) it is because I shot down your arguments.
And really, you never did answer why it is wrong for muslim women to want to be treated fairly and with dignity. And you didn't explain why muslim women being murdered in Saudi Arabia is not a human rights violation?
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:40 PM
 
1,115 posts, read 2,853,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Well, actually you are speaking to me when you are quoting a post of mine. It is this little thing called a 'thread'....
And if I am not that important to you, I can only presume (see? I can do it too) it is because I shot down your arguments.
And really, you never did answer why it is wrong for muslim women to want to be treated fairly and with dignity. And you didn't explain why muslim women being murdered in Saudi Arabia is not a human rights violation?

I think it's great that Muslem women want to be treated with more equal right in places like Pakistan where they are abused. I see absolutely no problem with it. I already said this.

What I am saying is that women are not abused in every Muslem country. This is some BS that so many Americans believe these days. They think Muslem = bad.

These days there is an out of control Muslem witchhunt going on. And it is being led and orchestrated by Christian fanatics. Driven by American superiority complex.

Instead of being the world police, we Americans should recognize some of the huge problems in our own society. We should stop thinking we are perfect and judging Muslem countries, while our own country is totally falling apart. This is another glass house.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Well, actually you are speaking to me when you are quoting a post of mine. It is this little thing called a 'thread'....
And if I am not that important to you, I can only presume (see? I can do it too) it is because I shot down your arguments.
And really, you never did answer why it is wrong for muslim women to want to be treated fairly and with dignity. And you didn't explain why muslim women being murdered in Saudi Arabia is not a human rights violation?
I believe what funkymonk is trying to say is that invariably when someone wants to put Islam in a bad light, he will quote or give statistics from the extremes. Take Islam as a bell-curve. He will not quote examples from the majority (average) middle but will use examples from the extreme ends of the curve which is a minority. Saudi Arabia is one extreme. They are a very conservative society with their own interpretations of the religious rules which most other muslim countries don't agree with but that is their interpretation.

If as you say, Islam is poison to women why then are there many western women accepting Islam? Is that not a contradiction? And no..these women did not accept Islam because of marriage etc but rather after studying the religion.

And you are right about Malaysia Funkymonk. I know coz I live somewhere near that country
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Old 04-05-2009, 10:23 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,284,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
I believe what funkymonk is trying to say is that invariably when someone wants to put Islam in a bad light, he will quote or give statistics from the extremes. Take Islam as a bell-curve. He will not quote examples from the majority (average) middle but will use examples from the extreme ends of the curve which is a minority. Saudi Arabia is one extreme. They are a very conservative society with their own interpretations of the religious rules which most other muslim countries don't agree with but that is their interpretation.

If as you say, Islam is poison to women why then are there many western women accepting Islam? Is that not a contradiction? And no..these women did not accept Islam because of marriage etc but rather after studying the religion.

And you are right about Malaysia Funkymonk. I know coz I live somewhere near that country
Yes, Islam is a bell curve. But it can and should also be mentioned that those who live in the extreme of Islam number in the millions. It really cannot be said that those people are in an extreme minority. In fact, that would be interesting to know -- just what is the percentage of muslims who live in the extreme such as in Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran and a few other coutries compared with those that live in more moderate areas. Of course, then we have to understand that while they may live in places like the UK it doesn't mean that they don't believe in a more extreme version of Islam.

You know, I was thinking about you (and elwill and mommytotwo) the other day. I was reading the book "Reading Lolita in Tehren' - truly you should read it. Anyway, it is a memoir and the woman who wrote it was explaining what happened after the revolution in Iran when wearing the veil became mandatory. She said that it was not only more secular women who were protesting this, but very devout religious muslim women as well. The reason for the devout women who have always worn the veil was brilliantlly simple. They said that by making wearing the veil mandatory, it essentially makes it meaningless. They wore the veil as an outward devotion to god, a sacrifice to show their commitment to Islam. By making it mandatory, it made the act meaningless. The law took away the very meaning of the veil away.
I found that to be a very beautiful and enlightening passage of that book. I wonder that the mullahs in Iran/Saudi/Afghanistan etc...did not realize what they were doing --- devotion should come from the mind/heart/spirit. It loses a lot when it comes from the law alone.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:56 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,493 times
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i really hate to see both of you ( camping & Funkymonk) depate like that , because i really like both of you , and i think that both of you open minded , may be you just misunderstood each other

i appereciate your view funkymonk toward islam and i find it very unbiased and just .
as for camping i can understand her logic and her view , i don't think that she biased against islam rather i think that she focused lately in the darkest side of some countries .

camping . i think that it will bring benefits for all to asking about the good of the religion
no one will follow a religion becuase it's evil , offcourse mankind will follow a religion because of the good in this massage
as for example i can't imagine woman convert to islam becasue islam dishonoured the women , and i can't imagine woman marrying to a muslim because his religion allowed him to beat his wife
those women recognized somthing good in islam ,

what i want to say that may be you hate islam because you find evil deeds attributed to it , but what about to learn about the other side , the good one , the good side which muslims themselfs regonizes in thier religion
i think that if you wanna to attain balance understanding for why muslims like thier religion and why some folks convert to islam , then what is thier openion about what happenes in some countries , why they oppose them and why they agree with them .
you know this kinds of argumants !!! it will be very great discussion if it goes that way

muslims will not ever hate thier religion or feel any shame from it because of some behaviours of some countries because muslims knows about thier religion what you never can know from your media
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:04 AM
 
1,115 posts, read 2,853,863 times
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You're right. I need to remember to keep it groovy and keep the love.
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