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Old 04-06-2009, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i really hate to see both of you ( camping & Funkymonk) depate like that , because i really like both of you , and i think that both of you open minded , may be you just misunderstood each other

i appereciate your view funkymonk toward islam and i find it very unbiased and just .
as for camping i can understand her logic and her view , i don't think that she biased against islam rather i think that she focused lately in the darkest side of some countries .

camping . i think that it will bring benefits for all to asking about the good of the religion
no one will follow a religion becuase it's evil , offcourse mankind will follow a religion because of the good in this massage
as for example i can't imagine woman convert to islam becasue islam dishonoured the women , and i can't imagine woman marrying to a muslim because his religion allowed him to beat his wife
those women recognized somthing good in islam ,

what i want to say that may be you hate islam because you find evil deeds attributed to it , but what about to learn about the other side , the good one , the good side which muslims themselfs regonizes in thier religion
i think that if you wanna to attain balance understanding for why muslims like thier religion and why some folks convert to islam , then what is thier openion about what happenes in some countries , why they oppose them and why they agree with them .
you know this kinds of argumants !!! it will be very great discussion if it goes that way

muslims will not ever hate thier religion or feel any shame from it because of some behaviours of some countries because muslims knows about thier religion what you never can know from your media
As always, thank you for your point of view, elwill. I always enjoy reading your posts, and I always feel that I come away with a new understanding -- even if we don't always agree.

I do want to clear something up. I do not believe Islam itself is evil, or wrong or in anyway a 'bad' religion. Islam when practiced the way I believe it was intended to be practiced is a lovely religion which gave women rights long before christianity did.

My problem lies soley with those that would pervert Islam into a religion that condones murder, rape, violence against women. And some countries have done just that! If I were a muslim woman, I would be appalled at how my religion had been twisted to accept very unIslamic actions. And too, my problem lies with the 'silent majority' within Islam - those who disagree with the actions of the extreme, but don't necessarily condemn those actions either.
And...I don't think women convert to Islam in order to wear a burqha or be beaten by their husbands. I think most women converts first fall in love with a muslim man and then with the religion. I don't think any woman convert would voluntarily go live in Kabul or the Swat Valley. Those muslim women are born into those cultures. I do feel badly for the abuses that they endure. But to say that all of Islam is bad? Or that all muslim men are bad? No, never.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:18 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
As always, thank you for your point of view, elwill. I always enjoy reading your posts, and I always feel that I come away with a new understanding -- even if we don't always agree.

I do want to clear something up. I do not believe Islam itself is evil, or wrong or in anyway a 'bad' religion. Islam when practiced the way I believe it was intended to be practiced is a lovely religion which gave women rights long before christianity did.

My problem lies soley with those that would pervert Islam into a religion that condones murder, rape, violence against women. And some countries have done just that! If I were a muslim woman, I would be appalled at how my religion had been twisted to accept very unIslamic actions. And too, my problem lies with the 'silent majority' within Islam - those who disagree with the actions of the extreme, but don't necessarily condemn those actions either.
And...I don't think women convert to Islam in order to wear a burqha or be beaten by their husbands. I think most women converts first fall in love with a muslim man and then with the religion. I don't think any woman convert would voluntarily go live in Kabul or the Swat Valley. Those muslim women are born into those cultures. I do feel badly for the abuses that they endure. But to say that all of Islam is bad? Or that all muslim men are bad? No, never.
wow , can you see now how really both of you very close in your views !

thank you camping for your clearing these things up , i allready knows your intentions and your way of thinking through our previous dicussions

and i ahave to confess that i really respect your view and understand it


anyway , from your decleration for your view , can i understand that you complain from silence of muslims , not from islam itself ?
do you remember my question in another thread when i said to you that muslims can do nothing but condemn such acts and i asked you what do you suggest from muslims to do . (practical solutions)

islam didn't give us the permession to exceed the limits of another country even if it was muslim country
if we should to do such behaviour , so i think that it will be most important for sunni muslims to destroy shiits muslims because they have practices which opposes majority of musilms (suuni) yet they (shiits) calling themselfs muslims
do you understand my point

do you want to make constructive discussion ! ? well pick up specific odd case , let us analyse and exchange our views about it . may be you will find most of muslims in this forum in your side , may be you will find them all oppose what happened in that case .
hence we can determine our purposes from the discussion
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:48 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,289,229 times
Reputation: 2880
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
wow , can you see now how really both of you very close in your views !

thank you camping for your clearing these things up , i allready knows your intentions and your way of thinking through our previous dicussions

and i ahave to confess that i really respect your view and understand it


anyway , from your decleration for your view , can i understand that you complain from silence of muslims , not from islam itself ?
do you remember my question in another thread when i said to you that muslims can do nothing but condemn such acts and i asked you what do you suggest from muslims to do . (practical solutions)

islam didn't give us the permession to exceed the limits of another country even if it was muslim country
if we should to do such behaviour , so i think that it will be most important for sunni muslims to destroy shiits muslims because they have practices which opposes majority of musilms (suuni) yet they (shiits) calling themselfs muslims
do you understand my point

do you want to make constructive discussion ! ? well pick up specific odd case , let us analyse and exchange our views about it . may be you will find most of muslims in this forum in your side , may be you will find them all oppose what happened in that case .
hence we can determine our purposes from the discussion
Thank you for your understanding, elwill. And I do remember our previous discussions.
I think my confusion came from my point of reference. The only organized religion that I am intimately familiar with is catholicism. In the catholic church there is a 'head guy' - the Pope. He is in charge of all catholics all over the world. Underneath him is a very rigid chain of command. So, if catholics in one country were advocating the execution of homosexuals the Pope would get involved and tell them to stop it or risk ex communication.
It is now my understanding that in Islam there is no 'central authority' or chain of command. That makes things a little trickier....
I see how the shiites and sunnis in Iraq are fighting, and I confess I do not understand it. Perhaps it is impossible for me to ever fully understand the complexities of it - and no doubt it highlights the folly of Bush ever thinking he could 'change' Iraq by force.
So.....I object to the way women are treated by some muslims in some Islamic societies. But I do not have the depth of understanding to know how to stop it. It must come from other muslims -- but how can they do that effectively without war or suicide bombers, I really don't know.
Do you think that the lot of women in these countries will ever improve, elwill? I have read that in Saudi Arabia more women are becoming outspoken about their treatment, and sadly more women in Afghanistan are commiting suicide via fire as the only way they can escape their lives.
To me it is very sad.
Now, when it comes to immigrants to the US -- I think it is imperative that US law trump societal/tribal laws in regards to human rights violations. In that way, and in that way only can the US stop things such as honor killings/fgm and the like. But in their countries....I really don't know if anything can be done.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Maple Shade, NJ
123 posts, read 250,939 times
Reputation: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Now, when it comes to immigrants to the US -- I think it is imperative that US law trump societal/tribal laws in regards to human rights violations. In that way, and in that way only can the US stop things such as honor killings/fgm and the like. But in their countries....I really don't know if anything can be done.
Camping, one of the things about Islam is that we are taught that we have to respect the laws of the country that we live in.
For example: in Islam it is permissible for a man to have up to 4 wives (and there are a lot of rules that come along with this which I will not elaborate upon right now unless you want me too), but in a country such as the USA, polygamy is against the law. Therefore no man should take up to four wives; he is only allowed one wife.
Islam itself, when you go read the Quran and research that, (NOT the CULTURAL practices) does not advocate violence unless it is in self defense, then you are able to defend yourself.
One of the things about these forums that makes me sad is that you will always have one or two people that just start quoting blindly out of the Quran in a way that it suits their purpose. For any one sentence to make sense you need to read the whole paragraph. Otherwise you are only getting half of the story.
But the same is true from the Bible. I could start quoting passages out of the Bible in a way that makes it look like it advocates extreme violence to any who dares to show a different opinion than myself. I am a Muslim convert, living in a house full of Roman Catholics, my dad is a Protestant and my mother follows the religion of Buddha. Now if what all these people on this forum are saying is true then I should go out right now and kill my whole family because they are unbelievers. I should go out and kill my Christian friends and Greek orthodox co-workers. Now how ridiculous does that sound? And I am not just an exception, I am a very well educated young lady, I have no Muslim boyfriend or husband and I am a member of the US Air Force. All of my Muslim friends are very moderate or even liberal and strongly oppose any type of violence towards women, children and elderly be it in the USA or elsewhere in the world (Muslim or non-Muslim).
Now Elwill, please correct me if I am wrong anywhere here in my post for I know you are a very well educated member of Islam. Shukran and Salaam Aleikum (Thank you and peace be with you)
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:28 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,289,229 times
Reputation: 2880
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanrose20 View Post
Camping, one of the things about Islam is that we are taught that we have to respect the laws of the country that we live in.
For example: in Islam it is permissible for a man to have up to 4 wives (and there are a lot of rules that come along with this which I will not elaborate upon right now unless you want me too), but in a country such as the USA, polygamy is against the law. Therefore no man should take up to four wives; he is only allowed one wife.
Islam itself, when you go read the Quran and research that, (NOT the CULTURAL practices) does not advocate violence unless it is in self defense, then you are able to defend yourself.
[SIZE=3]One of the things about these forums that makes me sad is that you will always have one or two people that just start quoting blindly out of the Quran in a way that it suits their purpose. For any one sentence to make sense you need to read the whole paragraph. Otherwise you are only getting half of the story. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]But the same is true from the Bible. I could start quoting passages out of the Bible in a way that makes it look like it advocates extreme violence to any who dares to show a different opinion than myself. I am a Muslim convert, living in a house full of Roman Catholics, my dad is a Protestant and my mother follows the religion of Buddha. Now if what all these people on this forum are saying is true then I should go out right now and kill my whole family because they are unbelievers. I should go out and kill my Christian friends and Greek orthodox co-workers. Now how ridiculous does that sound? And I am not just an exception, I am a very well educated young lady, I have no Muslim boyfriend or husband and I am a member of the US Air Force. All of my Muslim friends are very moderate or even liberal and strongly oppose any type of violence towards women, children and elderly be it in the USA or elsewhere in the world (Muslim or non-Muslim). I do hope this helps to clear up some of the misconceptions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Now Elwill, please correct me if I am wrong anywhere here in my post for I know you are a very well educated member of Islam. Shukran and Salaam Aleikum (Thank you and peace be with you)[/SIZE]
Yes, I understand this. I was referring to the extreme - the fundementalists who come from countries that have twined Islam and culture to excuse brutal behavior and attitudes towards women and gays. Not all muslims by any stretch.
There have been a several incidences of honor killings in the US and Canada - commited by men from I believe Pakistan. Now, not all men from Pakistan condone honor killings and it is not even just muslims from that area that peform honor killings.
My thought is that while we - western women, for instance - can do nothing to help those women or to stop such practices while they are in their home countries our laws will protect these women (at least to a certain extent) once they immigrate. And then, who knows? Maybe they will then be able to ennact change in their home countries.
So to reiterate -- I do not think most muslims are extreme or fundementalists. I do think that there is a faction of extremism out there, and I do think those people are being used to further political agendas. (and to be fair, the same can be said of christian fundementalists) But I have no fear of muslims or the Islam religion. Like with everything else in life, there are always those few *****les that mess it up for everybody else
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Maple Shade, NJ
123 posts, read 250,939 times
Reputation: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
So to reiterate -- I do not think most muslims are extreme or fundementalists. I do think that there is a faction of extremism out there, and I do think those people are being used to further political agendas. (and to be fair, the same can be said of christian fundementalists) But I have no fear of muslims or the Islam religion. Like with everything else in life, there are always those few *****les that mess it up for everybody else
With this one statement I completly agree with you. A lot of political agendas could (and most likely have) be pushed forward by using the fear that we have of such radical and extreme behavior. And yes, in any religion, or among the atheists, there are the ones who give the rest of us a bad reputation, because the media only (or at least predominately) shows the extreme side of the coin.
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:28 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
So.....I object to the way women are treated by some muslims in some Islamic societies. But I do not have the depth of understanding to know how to stop it. It must come from other muslims -- but how can they do that effectively without war or suicide bombers, I really don't know.
i object also the harsh way women are treated by anyone ( muslim or christain or jew or pagan or athiest) .
i wished if i can help you to know how to stop it , but i really can't help you because you didn't specify yet the case you are talking about , beside there are some confusions with your words , as for example what is the relation between suicide bombing and wars v.s treatment of women in some countries ?

Quote:
Do you think that the lot of women in these countries will ever improve, elwill?
the question not clear , which women and which kind of improvement you are talking about ?

Quote:
I have read that in Saudi Arabia more women are becoming outspoken about their treatment, and sadly more women in Afghanistan are commiting suicide via fire as the only way they can escape their lives.
To me it is very sad.
i have read either that muslims not convert to christianity fear of death , and that they wishes if they can leave it , when i read such things i just find myself

my point that you can read alot of things but actually you can't verified from it from one side point of view and ignoring the other
but again we havn't specific case to argue about it

as for suicide i think it's much spreaded within nonmuslim countries , but i agree with you that it's very bad to suicide for any reason

Quote:
Now, when it comes to immigrants to the US -- I think it is imperative that US law trump societal/tribal laws in regards to human rights violations. In that way, and in that way only can the US stop things such as honor killings/fgm and the like. But in their countries....I really don't know if anything can be done.
i hope either if they can stop things such crimes as honor killing , the same as i hope if your secular laws can stop other types of killing in your country
at least muslims agreed with you that honour killing is crime which should to be stopped
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:45 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanrose20 View Post
Camping, one of the things about Islam is that we are taught that we have to respect the laws of the country that we live in.
For example: in Islam it is permissible for a man to have up to 4 wives (and there are a lot of rules that come along with this which I will not elaborate upon right now unless you want me too), but in a country such as the USA, polygamy is against the law. Therefore no man should take up to four wives; he is only allowed one wife.
Islam itself, when you go read the Quran and research that, (NOT the CULTURAL practices) does not advocate violence unless it is in self defense, then you are able to defend yourself.
One of the things about these forums that makes me sad is that you will always have one or two people that just start quoting blindly out of the Quran in a way that it suits their purpose. For any one sentence to make sense you need to read the whole paragraph. Otherwise you are only getting half of the story.
But the same is true from the Bible. I could start quoting passages out of the Bible in a way that makes it look like it advocates extreme violence to any who dares to show a different opinion than myself. I am a Muslim convert, living in a house full of Roman Catholics, my dad is a Protestant and my mother follows the religion of Buddha. Now if what all these people on this forum are saying is true then I should go out right now and kill my whole family because they are unbelievers. I should go out and kill my Christian friends and Greek orthodox co-workers. Now how ridiculous does that sound? And I am not just an exception, I am a very well educated young lady, I have no Muslim boyfriend or husband and I am a member of the US Air Force. All of my Muslim friends are very moderate or even liberal and strongly oppose any type of violence towards women, children and elderly be it in the USA or elsewhere in the world (Muslim or non-Muslim).
Now Elwill, please correct me if I am wrong anywhere here in my post for I know you are a very well educated member of Islam. Shukran and Salaam Aleikum (Thank you and peace be with you)

off course i agree with you , muslims have to respect the laws of the country they live within

unfortunatly , most of people don't now how muslims actually treated the citizenes of dhemme and how the prophet mohammed (pbuh) himself recommended his follower to deal kindly with the people of dhimmi and to give them the freedom in thier religion and prohibit muslims to destroy thier churches .or take thier property ............., etc
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:05 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
My thought is that while we - western women, for instance - can do nothing to help those women or to stop such practices while they are in their home countries our laws will protect these women (at least to a certain extent) once they immigrate. And then, who knows? Maybe they will then be able to ennact change in their home countries.
i have good news , i think it's a good step

Pakistan's Senate has approved a bill which strengthens the law against so-called honour killings.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan honour killing bill passed

after all , i think that tradition Is Stronger than the Law , but it's positive step , may be it will take some of time to limit such traditions
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:13 AM
 
Location: Maple Shade, NJ
123 posts, read 250,939 times
Reputation: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i have good news , i think it's a good step

Pakistan's Senate has approved a bill which strengthens the law against so-called honour killings.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan honour killing bill passed

after all , i think that tradition Is Stronger than the Law , but it's positive step , may be it will take some of time to limit such traditions
Alhamdullilah! Thank you for posting this, I have not heard of this yet. Hopefully this will help to guide people in the right direction. Especially those that are entrenched in cultural/traditional practices.
The law may not be all inclusive but Insha'allah it can be extended to give more protection to the women who are wrongfully accused.
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