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Old 04-07-2009, 11:18 AM
 
5,006 posts, read 13,851,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astron1000 View Post
It should then be easy to prove they are "false." It should be easy to prove yours is "true."

This should be fun.
It would be fun, wouldn't it?
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:08 PM
 
Location: California
1,191 posts, read 1,285,433 times
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"Why would I be a Muslim..."

If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Iran you would probably be a Muslim (Sunni for Arabia and Shia for Iran). If you were born in India there is a good chance you would be a Hindu or maybe still a Muslim. If you were born in Macon, Georgia you just may be a Southern Baptist Christian.

The point is I don't think the majority of Muslims in the Middle East chose their faith. Islam is the defining element of their culture. And we are all products of our culture. Over time most of us simply learn to defend who we think we are. We can call it backwards, we can call it antiquated, we can call it the wrong path to God. We can say it is stupid because there is no God. In the end none of those assertions are going to make 1.3 billion people stop and change theological/philisophical/cultural direction.

So laying out a list of negatives for any school of thought upon which an entire culure is built will most likely change no one. People have to be shown a better way. But then you must define "better" in a way that is valuable to the people you want to change. That would require actually connecting with them as oppose to simply ridiculing their beliefs. I find many of the religious and irreligious alike are not interested in connecting with people on a human level. Instead, they are more concerned with winning the arguement, proving their supposed point and being right.

And those very hang ups (winning the arguemnt, proving their supposed point and being right) are the foundation of our socalled clash of civilzations.
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:02 PM
 
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At university, we learned to discuss religion freely, I would sit in a group of muslims, christians, jews, atheists, etc and discuss each other's religion. Everyone thinks their religion is right and that all other religions are wrong and should be eliminated so as to avoid confusing the other people who might finally see the light and joing that religion. Once we got over that idea, we discussed a lot of religions and one thing I decided is that I will give credit to someone who knows almost everything about their religion and about the religion they are attacking.
So our group at school started with shouting at each other, throwing accusations, blaming each other (the discussions were supervised by an atheist professor, who was actually enjoying this!). I am a muslim and I even started rejecting the other versions of islam from the first meeting!!.
Untill after almost three meetings of this, we realised we were talking politics and not religion!!! Apparently thats what the prof wanted to confirm in his research.
Religion is between you and your God, if you believe in it, then you take the responsibility of knowing everything about it, so that when ppl start attacking it, you can protect it with your words and knowledge.
Religion is not about what you see happening around you ( I mean yeah u have to be informed) but don't judge based on what humans are saying or doing.
Once you go back to the source of it all, you will feel satisfied and you'll know that you don't have to ban any other religion's books from your household or from a country to prove your point.
I've read everything in this discussion and noticed that a lot of people are mixing politics with religion!
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:13 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 1,929,757 times
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Originally Posted by ArmyRanger View Post
The way I see it, any religion that has to outlaw the seeking of other religions, has something to hide. Why would Islamic run countries ban the Bible? If Islam was the way, they would'nt have anything to fear from thier people comparing the two books, the Koran and the Bible, to see which one makes more sense. Why would Islamic countries execute anyone who converts to Christianity? Because they know that if any of thier believers took a hard, honest look at Islam and Christianity then a significant number of thier flock would switch teams. Thier Koran and the religion itself is full of holes that Christianity fills, and the leaders of the Islamic faith know this. Here is my question, and would any Muslim please answer> Why do the Islamic countries have such laws and practices against other religions and what do they have to fear from even the basic knowledge of other religions if Islam is the real path to God?
So why did/do so many Christians flee Christianity and go to Islam?

Religious people are sheep and will follow whoever is the most convincing. If someone is pushing the Bible on them and they are a sheep who cannot think for themselves, they will be a Christian...if it's the Q'uran, they will be Islamic. It doesn't matter. All Abrahamic religions are the same anyways, they just have a few miniscule differences that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

You do realize that Christians used to murder people for simply being Jewish (or of another faith) and refusing to convert. The more religious a society is, the more backwards and primitive it is. America is more backwards and primitive than Scandanavia, but less so than Saudi Arabia. That's all.

We will never be truly civilized until people learn to stop worshipping god and country and simply celebrate mankind and Earth.
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:19 PM
 
Location: San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyRanger View Post
Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyRanger View Post
He is what makes Christianity superior to Islam.
So basically you're just being ego/ethno-centric and thinking that your fairy tales and your imaginary friend are better than theirs. How pathetic.

I've studied Buddha, and he makes a lot more sense than Jesus...so does Lao Tzu...Hell, even Bob Marley makes more sense than Jesus and the bible in today's society.

You people are so egocentric, it's amazing. How do you get through life with such blinders on? How can you live without wanting to know anything about the world you occupy?
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Old 04-24-2009, 05:10 PM
 
Location: San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
But why don't you believe in a Creator? I mean just look all around you - it can't just happend by chance right? The whole universe thing. Impossible all that happened is chance
This is an answer by someone who is very ignorant and happy about it. Religion explains the world in simplistic terms for those too dumb to comprehend the complexities of the World.

The sun rises and sets because the Earth rotates on a daily basis, not because your imaginary friend moves the sun around with his hands.
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Old 04-25-2009, 03:31 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftydan6 View Post
This is an answer by someone who is very ignorant and happy about it. Religion explains the world in simplistic terms for those too dumb to comprehend the complexities of the World.

The sun rises and sets because the Earth rotates on a daily basis, not because your imaginary friend moves the sun around with his hands.
Ignorant? Maybe to you..but how do you explain for example..when a scientific happening that is only discovered recently was already reported in a Holy Book (in this case the Quran)? And please don't use 'copy from other sources or plain chance or luck' to explain away the question.

Religion is for those too dumb to comprehend the complexities of the world? Not when Islam shed light on topics as diverse as geology, astronomy etc and that knowledge glimmed was then expanded by the scientists amongst that community. These scientists had comparable religious and secular learning,comparable to the later day "Renaissance Men" like Da Vinci etc. They did not reject the religion. Are these people then too simple to understand the complexities of the world? In fact, the more they understood the workings of their sciences, the more their faith strengthened with the knowledge that only a Creator could have produced such a magnificent & marvellous universe. Subhanallah!
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:12 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,726,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
.but how do you explain for example..when a scientific happening that is only discovered recently was already reported in a Holy Book (in this case the Quran)? And please don't use 'copy from other sources or plain chance or luck' to explain away the question.
But what if it were plain chance or luck?

Anyway, the more likely answer is that Muslims go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it seem like the obviously wrong parts of the Koran are in fact accurate.

Muslims are biased toward believing the Koran is true. Accordingly, they give their interpretations of the Koran every benefit of the doubt, in a desperate attempt to hide the obviously untrue parts of it.

In short, the Koran is vague, and you cheat.
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:34 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
But what if it were plain chance or luck?
Anyway, the more likely answer is that Muslims go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make it seem like the obviously wrong parts of the Koran are in fact accurate.
Muslims are biased toward believing the Koran is true. Accordingly, they give their interpretations of the Koran every benefit of the doubt, in a desperate attempt to hide the obviously untrue parts of it.
In short, the Koran is vague, and you cheat.
The Qur'an Seas and Rivers

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.
(Principles of Oceanography - Davis, pp. 92-93)

For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1,000 meters with its own warm, saline and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth
(Principles of Oceanography p. 93).

The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C).
Even in depths (indicated here by darker colors) up to 1,400 meters and at distances ranging from a minus -100 to +2,500 meters, we find that both bodies of water maintain their individual temperatures and salinity.
THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER

One of the properties of seas that has only recently been discovered is related in a verse of the Qur'an as follows:

"He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through." (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

This property of the seas, that is, that they meet and yet do not intermix, has only very recently been discovered by oceanographers. Because of the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. Caused by the difference in the density of their waters, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them.
It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography, this truth was revealed in the Qur'an.

There are large waves, strong currents, and tides in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Mediterranean Sea water enters the Atlantic by Gibraltar. But their temperature, salinity, and densities do not change, because of the barrier that separates them

Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.
The Holy Qur'an mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress.
God said:
{He has let free the two seas meeting to gather. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.} (Qur'an 55:19-20)

But when the Qur'an speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of "a forbidding partition" with the barrier.

God said in the Qur'an:
{He is the one who has let free the two bodies of flowing water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.} (Qur'an 25:53)

On may ask, why did the Qur'an mention the partition when speaking about the divider between fresh and salt water, but did not mention it when speaking about the divider between the two seas?
Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a "pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers." (Oceanography p. 242)
This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water (Oceanography p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography pp. 300-301)

This information has been discovered only recently using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: the fresh water, the salt water, the partition (zone of separation).

i dare you then Boxcar to explain away this evidence in the Quran. Chance? Plain luck? That's bs and you know it or is it still too vague for you? Who cheats then?

Alas..the atheist always ask for scientific evidence or proof but when confronted with what is asked - he keeps his silence.
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,874 posts, read 31,747,081 times
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It is easy to explain away, because it's just not true, and I'm not going to be silent.

Where did you find that stuff, on an Islamic apologetics site? The Mediterranean and Atlantic are constantly exchanging water. The Mediterranean has been metaphorically described as breathing, inhaling surface water from the Atlantic and exhaling deep water in a countercurrent below.

Vertical circulation also occurs because of variations in salinity, as saline water is denser than less saline water, and because warm water tends to rise and cold water tends to sink. Saline input comes from the Mediterranean Sea and to a lesser extent from the Red Sea and Persian Gulf. These seas lie in regions where evaporation exceeds precipitation and inflow. The more highly saline water produced by the net evaporation sinks in the eastern Mediterranean and flows in a deep bottom current, termed the Upper Deep Water, through the Straits of Gibraltar westward into the Atlantic Ocean, while at the surface, less saline Atlantic water flows eastward into the Mediterranean.

ocean current -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
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