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Does it matter where, the point is, non Muslims living in Islamic countries face daily prosecution by Muslims.
Look, how can you back up first post when Muslims living in Islamic countries that chose to convert to other faiths face jail time or death? You really have no leg to stand on. Accept today's Islam for what is it, an intolerant, violent religion. When you take your religion back and live by what the Quran (and not the extremist parts) teaches, then people will have different perception of Islam.
Just the way I did, I try to draw a distinction between Islam the religion, and Islam the political movement. A person can pray to whatever God they want, and it's not my business, but as soon as they start advocating a political movement to establish a repressive authoritarian regime, then I'll push back.
That's easier said than done. Look at Britain, their laws are changing to accommodate Muslims, their freedom of speech is being altered to accommodate Muslims, and their culture is changing to accommodate Muslims.
I don't blame the Muslims, I blame the spineless politicians (usually Liberals).
That's easier said than done. Look at Britain, their laws are changing to accommodate Muslims, their freedom of speech is being altered to accommodate Muslims, and their culture is changing to accommodate Muslims.
I don't blame the Muslims, I blame the spineless politicians (usually Liberals).
I agree.
And you're the one who has to live with the islamic totalitarinsim in real life. I get to sit back from the safety of my computer write about it. So it would be a good deal harder for you.
You misunderstood me - I did not say islam justifies terrorism or that there are muslims who do not like it. Again, I was wondering if there were mass / spontaneous protests by the common man in the middle east against terrorism - the kind that happened against the cartoon publication? I know there were protests in India by muslims against Mumbai attacks - was wondering specifically about the middle east.
i understand what you trying to say , just try to be rational and make your comparisons logical
our reaction agaisnt terrorism is clear and notable , my country suffered from it as well
but don't ask middle east to protests in mass for every problem happens to others simply because muslims involved , your problems with terrorism is caused of your political system
middle east have it's own problems which they need to protests in mass for it
as for cartoons , the insults were forwarded to prophet of islam , which mean that you insult the religion of majority of people in the middle east , so that you find protests in mass in middle east
but try to isult the religion of pagans , you will not find us protests in mass because it's not our problem
those terrorist are muslims and they used it in vain to justify thier action , it's not my problem either
i can't for example blame christianity , because one of christians killed people then said it's the command of jesus , i saw a vision in my dream .
While it's true that atheist have committed crimes, rarely do they commit crimes because of atheism. Their atheism is usually unrelated to the crime.
that's exactly my point , the violence is exist regardless of religion , sometimes the religion is reason but not the only reason
what about if i told you that atheist have no religion to prohibit them from commiting the crime , they fear nothing and they don't believe in the day of judgement , hence can i say that thier atheism were the reason of their crimes ?
can you see how it's very easy to play the word games and insert even atheism in the problems of religions
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Muslims kill in the name of Islam. They kill BECAUSE of Islam. Were it not for Islam, those planes wouldn't have hit the towers in NYC, for example.
no it wasn't because of islam , while i condemn what happened in NYC but if it was happened by muslims , so it's for political reasons either
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But even here, Islam tends to be the most bloody of religions. Rarely can a country safely and peacefully co-exist with an islamic country. The islamic movments will predictable try to expand into their neighbors and overthrow the governments.
look around you , how muslims are the most bloody of religions , what about israil and what about america , they killing muslims in thier own land and when muslims trying to defence you blame them for thier violence !!!!
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This is always the problem when talking with moderate Muslims. They say that Islam really is a peaceful religiong that protects other faiths. That they know the REAL meaning of Islam, and everyone else has got it wrong.
most of you don't try to understand our view or to hear us , most of these discussions is always for just criticize islam not to discuss the problem and exchange the view of muslims
that's why the discussion became fruitless when it goes that way
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But I only care how Muslims actually act, not what they say the religions is about. So I see the Taliban, the Government in Saudi Arabia, etc., and I'm pretty sure they're not going out of the way to protect the rights of minorities, (religous or otherwise).
it's okey , everyone can choose to see what they want to see
i'm sure that not 100% of muslims act as they should
Does it matter where, the point is, non Muslims living in Islamic countries face daily prosecution by Muslims.
Look, how can you back up first post when Muslims living in Islamic countries that chose to convert to other faiths face jail time or death? You really have no leg to stand on. Accept today's Islam for what is it, an intolerant, violent religion. When you take your religion back and live by what the Quran (and not the extremist parts) teaches, then people will have different perception of Islam.
i'm asking you because i lives in muslim country , my floor alone contain 4 apartment , three of them are christians , and i have very good realationship with them
and i had many christian friends in my school and in my college and in my street .
i wanna to know if you really lives in muslim country , and if it was stable country to base your judgment on it and i want to verify from what you say
That's easier said than done. Look at Britain, their laws are changing to accommodate Muslims, their freedom of speech is being altered to accommodate Muslims, and their culture is changing to accommodate Muslims.
I don't blame the Muslims, I blame the spineless politicians (usually Liberals).
i don't know much about these laws
but i think that the laws changing to accomodate all religions
may be the previous laws didn't protect muslims and didn't give them thier rights , so that you feel that the new one accomodated them alone
so describe your view and tell me which laws which served islam alone in british laws
that's exactly my point , the violence is exist regardless of religion , sometimes the religion is reason but not the only reason
what about if i told you that atheist have no religion to prohibit them from commiting the crime , they fear nothing and they don't believe in the day of judgement , hence can i say that thier atheism were the reason of their crimes ?
can you see how it's very easy to play the word games and insert even atheism in the problems of religions
Except the countries with the most atheist are the most peaceful.
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Originally Posted by elwill
no it wasn't because of islam , while i condemn what happened in NYC but if it was happened by muslims , so it's for political reasons either
look around you , how muslims are the most bloody of religions , what about israil and what about america , they killing muslims in thier own land and when muslims trying to defence you blame them for thier violence !!!!
I know you think it's everyone's fault but your own. That what Muslims always think. Muslims don't get along with jews, it's the jews fault. Muslims don't get along with christians, its the christians fault. muslims don't get along with buddhist or atheist, it's always someone elses fault.
We can get into a big discussion about both of the points you made, and why I think you are mistaken. But it would take us pretty far off topic. So let me just say it this way: Maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Maybe the problem is the Muslims.
I feel like I'm a pretty neutral observer here. I'm an atheist, I think all religions are silly. But trust me when I tell you that Islam is the least progressive, the least respectful of individual liberties, and the most dangerous to people who value liberal democracies. That is how it is practaced, I don't know what it's like on paper. I'm talking about how Muslims actual practice their religion.
Every religion has had their reformations and counter-reformations - except islam. It's still trying to navigate by the moral compass made 2000 years ago. Actually, even that's not quite acurate - your reformation actual made things worse. Your's is the only religion that had a reformation and became more hostil to individual rights.
And if I may be frank, it's the Muslim brotherhood from your country that is responsible for lots of the problems in the world.
I know, you think there's nothing wrong with islam, and it's everyone elses who is to blame.
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Originally Posted by elwill
most of you don't try to understand our view or to hear us , most of these discussions is always for just criticize islam not to discuss the problem and exchange the view of muslims
that's why the discussion became fruitless when it goes that way
Before we can have a discussion, I have to know if you think I should be killed if I convinced a person to turn away from Islam and become an atheist.
I know you think it's everyone's fault but your own. That what Muslims always think. Muslims don't get along with jews, it's the jews fault. Muslims don't get along with christians, its the christians fault. muslims don't get along with buddhist or atheist, it's always someone elses fault.
no , you misunderstood me , which words i said made you think that .
when i say that terrorism happened for political reasons either , i didn't mean to justify it .
if you want any confession , so all i can say that it's fault of terrorist not islam
let us analyze my view from another point of view and tell me
what is the requirments of those terrorist ? is it political needs or they just threating you to force you to convert to islam ?
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We can get into a big discussion about both of the points you made, and why I think you are mistaken. But it would take us pretty far off topic. So let me just say it this way: Maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Maybe the problem is the Muslims.
yes may be muslims have a portion of the problem , anyway feel yourself wellcome if you wanna to discuss this point in new thread , i hope i can find constructive discussion with you , not matter the differs of our view is
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I feel like I'm a pretty neutral observer here. I'm an atheist, I think all religions are silly. But trust me when I tell you that Islam is the least progressive, the least respectful of individual liberties, and the most dangerous to people who value liberal democracies. That is how it is practaced, I don't know what it's like on paper. I'm talking about how Muslims actual practice their religion.
this is your openion which i differ with , if you seek another discussion about that , you are wellcome either
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Every religion has had their reformations and counter-reformations - except islam. It's still trying to navigate by the moral compass made 2000 years ago. Actually, even that's not quite acurate - your reformation actual made things worse. Your's is the only religion that had a reformation and became more hostil to individual rights.
we can't reform the religion of God
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And if I may be frank, it's the Muslim brotherhood from your country that is responsible for lots of the problems in the world.
I know, you think there's nothing wrong with islam, and it's everyone elses who is to blame.
yes i do thing that nothing wrong with islam , may be muslims but not islam , and everyone including muslims did evil things must to be blame , the problem is that you blame muslims alone
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Before we can have a discussion, I have to know if you think I should be killed if I convinced a person to turn away from Islam and become an atheist.
i understand what you trying to say , just try to be rational and make your comparisons logical
our reaction agaisnt terrorism is clear and notable , my country suffered from it as well
but don't ask middle east to protests in mass for every problem happens to others simply because muslims involved , your problems with terrorism is caused of your political system
middle east have it's own problems which they need to protests in mass for it
as for cartoons , the insults were forwarded to prophet of islam , which mean that you insult the religion of majority of people in the middle east , so that you find protests in mass in middle east
but try to isult the religion of pagans , you will not find us protests in mass because it's not our problem
those terrorist are muslims and they used it in vain to justify thier action , it's not my problem either
i can't for example blame christianity , because one of christians killed people then said it's the command of jesus , i saw a vision in my dream .
do you understand what i'm trying to say ?
All I was trying to do was to look for a specific kind of reaction.
Unrelated to that, here is an example of women protesting against the new law. Even though it is in Kabul probably progressive by Afghani standards, these women needed to have a lot of guts to go out and protest - and that is a good thing. Unfortunately, in this case, it also pits 2 opposing factions - which still does not take away from their bravery.
VOA News - Afghan Women Protest Against Marital Law (http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-04-15-voa32.cfm - broken link)
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