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Old 04-16-2009, 05:39 AM
 
Location: egypt
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The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) laid down the laws - some of them were direct commands stated in the revelation of the Qur'an; other laws grew up based on the Prophet's own example and the various rulings he gave to cases that occurred during his lifetime. These secondary laws are based on what's called the Sunnah - the Prophet's words, example, and way of life.

So, all the laws of Sharia are based primarily on Qur'an and then on Sunnah, and after that, if there was no information in those two sources, judges were free to use their intelligence to make analogies. As in most legal systems, cases could then be referred to by later judges.
in my openion that's why there are some differes between rules isn islamic countries even if they based on shariah




so i will just decsribe some of disputes raised against shariah , then anyone is wellcome if he has other questions , and please made it in respectfull manner

What are the basic principles of Sharia?
These are to see the will of God done on earth as it is in Heaven (without any distinctions between religions)
The whole principle of God's will is to bring about compassion, kindness, generosity, justice, fair play, tolerance, and care in general, as opposed to tyranny, cruelty, selfishness, exploitation etc. All the rules of Sharia are towards those ends.

Individual rights vs needs of society?
Basically in Islam the needs of society always come first

Islam considers crime an act of injustice towards society, a sin against oneself and a transgression against Allah. Punishment is not atonement nor does it erase the sin. A sin is only forgiven through repentance. However, crime is an act of inflicting harm upon society that cannot be forgiven by repentance alone.

The object of all penal systems is to punish the offender and protect society from reoccurrence of the crime. Punishment serves as an educational purpose, as well as a form of crime deterrent and prevention and the system used must achieve this aim. However, if societies were to rely only upon their systems of punishment, they would fail miserably. An environment of healthy morality and faith must be the norm, where to do right is encouraged by all and to do wrong is discouraged and found difficult. In fact, encouraging right and forbidding wrong is a foremost duty in Islam.

Islamic Shari`ah upon nonmuslims
According to the teachings of Islam, Muslims and non-Muslims – who live in the Islamic state – are treated equally. Religion doesn’t make difference in applying the hudud or penalties and punishment in the Islamic state. If a Muslim, for example, kills a non-Muslim with no right, he has to be killed in retaliation, and vice versa.
the Muslim’s hand should be cut off if he steals a non-Muslim’s property as long as the latter is not at war with Muslims

O ye who believe! The law of equality is prescribed to you , in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude. This is a concession and a mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 187)

(And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Who so judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong doers.) (Al-Ma’idah 5: 45)



Does Sharia make life easier or harder ?
Much easier for those who strive to live the correct life pleasing to God and in kindness and peace with the neighbour; much harder for the one who is selfish, callous, cruel, exploitative, dishonest etc. There is virtually no sympathy for such people - unless they really are mentally ill, in which case they are not regarded as culpable in Sharia. All those before the age of puberty, or not of sound mind, are not regarded as culpable.


Why has Sharia become a synonym for cruelty and lack of compassion?
I think through two things - ignorance of the reality of Sharia law, and much publicised cases where Muslims in positions of authority have been very poor Muslims, if not non-Muslims in Muslim disguise. For example, 100 years ago we had stories of awful Turkish sultans, and people being rushed to blocks to have their hands cut off etc. The media picks out certain cases and blows them up to make a big drama of them - they might pick on one particular murderer on death row in the USA and rouse everyone's feelings, but totally ignore all the others due to be executed that day!
A case like the Nigerian woman in danger of being stoned for adultery is a case in point. She might have been stoned by irate villagers, but on being taken into custody and judged by Sharia law she gets the opportunity to appeal and explain etc. In her case, if it is true that she was raped, she most certainly would not be sentenced to death. What interests me is who were the rotten people who brought the case against her anyway?



Dress
Sharia does not require women to wear a burqa. There are all sorts of items of dress which are worn by Muslim women, and these vary all over the world. Burqas belong to particular areas of the world, where they are considered normal dress. In other parts of the world the dress is totally different. The rule of dress for women is modesty, the word hijab implies 'covered'

Forced and arranged marriages
In Sharia Law any marriage that is forced or false in any way is null and void. It is not a proper marriage.

Forced marriage is not at all the same thing as arranged marriage. Muslims from many countries have a system of arranged marriages, in which the spouses may not have seen each other before marriage, but it always has to be with their free consent. The Prophet himself advised prospective spouses to at least 'look' at each other, until they could see what it was that made them wish to marry that person as opposed to any other. Women forced into marriage, or seeking divorce for general reasons, have the same sort of grounds in Sharia as in the west - cruelty, mental cruelty, adultery, abandonment, etc. They may even request a divorce for no specific reason whatever, so long as they agree to pay back the mahr (marriage payment) made to them by their husband if the husband does not wish to let them go but are obliged to

Criticism of shariah
The usual criticisms of Sharia - that it is so cruel as regards execution, flogging and cutting off hands, totally ignore all the extenuating circumstances that would lead to these penalties not being applied - they are known as hadd penalties (pl. hudud), the hadd being the extreme limit of the penalty.
Their point is that the cutting of the hand for theft is a very powerful deterrent. Muslims care less for the callous and continual thief than they do for the poor souls who are mugged and robbed and hurt by the thieves. The Middle East is certainly not full of one-handed people - as any traveller would tell you.
In Sharia law, if a thief could prove that he/she only stole because of need, then the Muslim society would be held at fault and made to supply that need, and there would be no hand-cutting. Most thieves would think twice before risking a hand on mugging an old lady for her handbag!


any questions will be wellcomed , any insults or hate speech will be ignored
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:45 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,730,793 times
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Thanks for posting this.

I know this is what you believe Sharia law mandates, but is this a widely accepted interpretation in the Islamic community? The countries which follow Sharia, do they all agree with your interpretation?

For example, you say, "Sharia does not require women to wear a burqa". If this is true, then why do some of the Islamic countries require the burqa? Do they cite the Sharia as the source of the burqa requirement, or do they cite some other area of legal justification?
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:28 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Thanks for posting this.

I know this is what you believe Sharia law mandates, but is this a widely accepted interpretation in the Islamic community? The countries which follow Sharia, do they all agree with your interpretation?

For example, you say, "Sharia does not require women to wear a burqa". If this is true, then why do some of the Islamic countries require the burqa? Do they cite the Sharia as the source of the burqa requirement, or do they cite some other area of legal justification?
first of all , you have to know that what is between me and you is our quran and our sunnah , so don't blame me if some contires acted against quran and sunnah even if it was in the name of it , but offcourse i have no problem to discuss it just as a kind of understanding the situation

regarding to your question , i have to say : NO , shariah dosn't require the burqa , but in the same time burqa not contradict it
so that Burqas belong to particular areas of the world, where they are considered normal dress.
but why they require the burqa ?
as i said in OP . an environment of healthy morality and faith must be the norm , this is kind of modesty and morality in thier view and thier culture , but it's not required in islam religion as a basic requirment for shariah
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,882 posts, read 31,776,624 times
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Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly, which in some countries is interpreted as women taking the veil and the sexes being segregated.

It seems to me that Sharia takes away most if not all personal freedoms...Not the way I'd want to live. I'd be in prison within a week!
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:44 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,730,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
first of all , you have to know that what is between me and you is our quran and our sunnah , so don't blame me if some contires acted against quran and sunnah even if it was in the name of it , but offcourse i have no problem to discuss it just as a kind of understanding the situation
I understand. For you, a believer, what is most important is what the quran and sunnah actually say.

For me, a non-believer, what is important is what muslims believe the quran and sunnah say. So when I use the term "Islam", I am talking about what muslims believe the quran says, even if they are making a mistake. The actual words of the quran and sunnah are irrelevent to me. As a non-believer, I only care about how it is interpreted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
regarding to your question , i have to say : NO , shariah dosn't require the burqa , but in the same time burqa not contradict it
so that Burqas belong to particular areas of the world, where they are considered normal dress.
but why they require the burqa ?
as i said in OP . an environment of healthy morality and faith must be the norm , this is kind of modesty and morality in thier view and thier culture , but it's not required in islam religion as a basic requirment for shariah
So it is not required by the shariah, but the principle behind it is derived from the shariah?

Next question: Does the Shariah punish people who convert from Islam? Does it punish people who try to convert people from Islam? How do Islamic governments treat people who either turn away from Islam, or turn others away from Islam?
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Old 04-16-2009, 08:14 AM
 
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Is it forbidden, under sharia law, to convert from islam to another religion?
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:35 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly, which in some countries is interpreted as women taking the veil and the sexes being segregated.

It seems to me that Sharia takes away most if not all personal freedoms...Not the way I'd want to live. I'd be in prison within a week!
when someone pray or fast , it will be for himself , no punishment from society to those whom didn't fast or pray because simply they didn't harm society

as for countries you don't like thier culture , don't visit or live in it . it's simple as that

i don't expect from you to like the culture of muslims , i just want you to understand it
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:19 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I understand. For you, a believer, what is most important is what the quran and sunnah actually say.

For me, a non-believer, what is important is what muslims believe the quran and sunnah say. So when I use the term "Islam", I am talking about what muslims believe the quran says, even if they are making a mistake. The actual words of the quran and sunnah are irrelevent to me. As a non-believer, I only care about how it is interpreted.
when i'm talking with you . i take under my consideration that you are non_muslim , when i said to you that what is between me and you is the sources of islam i actually meant to say our interprtation for quran either .

look , if you want talking about what muslims believe the quran says ,it will be fair , i have no problem with that
just remember to tell me what they think the quran say , don't give me some odd cases and some fool decesion without telling me how they interpret the quran to make such decision and which verses which they interpreted

do you think that my request is fair enough now ?


Quote:
So it is not required by the shariah, but the principle behind it is derived from the shariah?
yes , that's right
you know you can't prohibit the society from commiting adultery and rape for example (which is in shariah basics) , then allows the girls to run in the street semi_naked , you know ! the women have to help society by thier modesty to decreasing such crimes . thay try to close the door against such crimes as aduletry and rape

Quote:
Next question: Does the Shariah punish people who convert from Islam? Does it punish people who try to convert people from Islam? How do Islamic governments treat people who either turn away from Islam, or turn others away from Islam?
There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue even between some muslims ). It is generally thought that the Holy Quran provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein."
Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.

Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things."
Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray."
Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.

there are many verses which proof my point , but i think that's enough for for now


Those who advocate the death penalty for apostasy based their reasoning on a hadith which proclaims, "kill whoever changes his religion".
But this hadith is open to varying interpretations on several grounds.
(not that this is the only hadeeth they based on)

First this hadeeth is considered a weak hadith with just a single isnad (this means there is only one chain of transmission or narration) and thus according to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, it is not enough to validate the death penalty.

Second , this hadeeth is also considered a general ('amm) hadith in that it is in need of specification (takhsis); for it would otherwise convey a meaning that is not within its purpose. The obvious reading of the hadith would, for example, make liable the death punishment on a Hindu or Christian who converts to Islam. This is obviously not the intention of the hadith. According to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, when a text is interpreted once, it becomes open to further interpretation and specification. Therefore, many scholars interpret this hadith to apply only to cases of high treason (hirabah), which means declaring war against Islam, the Prophet, or God or the legitimate leadership of the ummah.


Third and most importantly, there is no evidence to show that Prophet Muhammad saw or his Companions ever compelled anyone to embrace Islam, nor did they sentence anyone to death solely for renunciation of the faith.

Based on these three reasons and the Qur'anic principle of freedom of religion, prominent ulama (scholars) from the seventh to the twentieth centuries have come out with the position that there can be no death penalty for apostasy. According to Professor Hashim Kamali in his award-winning book, Freedom of Expression in Islam, two leading jurists of the generation succeeding the Companions, Ibrahim al-Naka'I and Sufyan al-Thawri, both held that the apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. The renowned Hanafi jurist, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi wrote that even though renunciation of faith is the greatest of offences, it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the Day of Judgement. The Maliki jurist Abul Walid al-Baji and the renowned Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah have both held that apostasy is a sin which carries no hadd punishment.
In modern times, the celebrated Sheikh of al-Azhar University, the late Mahmud Shaltut who was esteemed for his vast knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence and Qur'anic interpretation, wrote that many ulama are in agreement that hudud cannot be established by a solitary hadith and that unbelief by itself does not call for the death penalty. The current Sheikh of al-Azhar, who was Egypt's former Grand Mufti, Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, also declared that apostasy is not a capital crime.
Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,508,858 times
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Thumbs up Thanks: good work but no moral reward, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) laid down the laws - .......

Why has Sharia become a synonym for cruelty and lack of compassion?
I think through two things - ignorance of the reality of Sharia law, and much publicised cases where Muslims in positions of authority have been very poor Muslims, if not non-Muslims in Muslim disguise. For example, 100 years ago we had stories of awful Turkish sultans, and people being rushed to blocks to have their hands cut off etc. The media picks out certain cases and blows them up to make a big drama of them - they might pick on one particular murderer on death row in the USA and rouse everyone's feelings, but totally ignore all the others due to be executed that day!
A case like the Nigerian woman in danger of being stoned for adultery is a case in point. She might have been stoned by irate villagers, but on being taken into custody and judged by Sharia law she gets the opportunity to appeal and explain etc. In her case, if it is true that she was raped, she most certainly would not be sentenced to death. What interests me is who were the rotten people who brought the case against her anyway?

..........

Forced and arranged marriages
In Sharia Law any marriage that is forced or false in any way is null and void. It is not a proper marriage.

Forced marriage is not at all the same thing as arranged marriage. Muslims from many countries have a system of arranged marriages, in which the spouses may not have seen each other before marriage, but it always has to be with their free consent. The Prophet himself advised prospective spouses to at least 'look' at each other, until they could see what it was that made them wish to marry that person as opposed to any other. Women forced into marriage, or seeking divorce for general reasons, have the same sort of grounds in Sharia as in the west - cruelty, mental cruelty, adultery, abandonment, etc. They may even request a divorce for no specific reason whatever, so long as they agree to pay back the mahr (marriage payment) made to them by their husband if the husband does not wish to let them go but are obliged to

Criticism of shariah
The usual criticisms of Sharia - that it is so cruel as regards execution, flogging and cutting off hands, totally ignore all the extenuating circumstances that would lead to these penalties not being applied - they are known as hadd penalties (pl. hudud), the hadd being the extreme limit of the penalty.
Their point is that the cutting of the hand for theft is a very powerful deterrent. Muslims care less for the callous and continual thief than they do for the poor souls who are mugged and robbed and hurt by the thieves. The Middle East is certainly not full of one-handed people - as any traveller would tell you.
In Sharia law, if a thief could prove that he/she only stole because of need, then the Muslim society would be held at fault and made to supply that need, and there would be no hand-cutting. Most thieves would think twice before risking a hand on mugging an old lady for her handbag!


any questions will be wellcomed , any insults or hate speech will be ignored


For all the world:

is it progressed to believers who are aware of believing correctly, and non-believers who need think of believing as a correct way?
Then there is the compassion of the shear way of belonging differentiated: the alchemists and realizers of coincidence, the discoverers of the return to Mecca

(I dare to say that other religions could have an outlook for the field of time return through eternity in analogy) and the tax-measurers as one would have, it the accountants of the working business.

I don't know. Still Science had an utlimate state for progress (Allah should not approve or be purged); I believe that Mohammedism was against science progressing over and above people progressing.

Am I correct to despell the rumour of atheism in this way, Elwill?
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:40 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,730,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
when i'm talking with you . ....
just remember to tell me what they think the quran say , don't give me some odd cases and some fool decesion without telling me how they interpret the quran to make such decision and which verses which they interpreted

do you think that my request is fair enough now ?
Thanks for your response.

That sounds fair. Also, I am not going to tell you anything, I am only asking questions. You know more about this subject than I do.

But I would add, it sounds like you don't need to convince us about what Islam is all about, it sounds like you need to convince the other muslims and governments. Because other people will tell us, with equal authority that you do, that in fact the law is clear that you should kill anyone that mocks God, anyone that turns away from God, etc.

The west generally believes that Islam is the religion the religious scholars in Saudi Arabia say it is. When we think of Islam, we think of Wahhabi, (or Muwahiddun) Islam, or at least our understanding of it.

Let me ask you, are you wahhabi, salafism, etc? Given that you are from Egypt, I assume you are some form of Sunni.

At any rate, is the interpretation of Islamic law you are describing the same interpretation that is accepted in wahhabism?

Thanks
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