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Old 05-28-2009, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Partisanship Is An Intellectual/Emotional Handicap
1,851 posts, read 1,877,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eanassir View Post
Yes, I am.



No, I'm not.



No compulsion in religion; This is in the Quran 2: 256
لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ
The explanation:

[There can be] no compulsion in religion [: none can compel you to be unbelievers;]

the correct way [of the Islam] has been made distinct from the error [of the association and idolatry.]

And anyone [of you] rejects [Abu-Jahl] the tyrant, and believes in God [Alone, ascribing no associates to Him,] has indeed grasped a firm handhold [of the ship] which is not detachable,

[so he will not be drowned and will be safe of Hell if he follows the religion of the Islam.]

God is All-Hearing [of your words], All-Knowing [of your intentions, O unbelievers!])




You cannot -with such words of yours - impede the word of God in the Glorious Quran to be seen by people; and God guides whemever He please.

ΥέΝΙ ΜΟνΟΙ 1
Those are words. Not evidence. Just empty words with nothing to support itself, except for itself.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:25 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,578,239 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
well here's the thing:
1. There are many things we know now that we didn't a hundred or even a thousand years ago, but we are finding out.
What relation has this to the discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
Now I'm an agnostic, so I'm quite open to the possibility that there is a supreme being, however, until there is any substantial evidence - and i'm not talking about the weak and quite frankly pathetic excuses some religious people claim is evidence of an almighty -
This is an evasion to answer my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
I will continue to see your argument as what it is: "a guy 1400 years ago made certain claims that Allah spoke to him and him only. Now 1.5 Billion people believe it."

The truth is the truth: has nothing to do whether a man lived now or 1500 years ago or more or less.

Moreover, God did not speak to Mohammed; God spoke to Prophet Moses; but God Most Gracious revealed to Prophet Mohammed the Quran including the exclusive devotion to God alone and to abandon the worshipping of idols, and the Quran confirms the past books: the Torah and the Gospel that had been revealed before.

As God - be glorified - said in the Quran 4: 163-164
إِنَّا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى نُوحٍ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ مِن بَعْدِهِ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإْسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَعِيسَى وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُونُسَ وَهَارُونَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ وَآتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ زَبُورًا ...الخ

The explanation:

(We have revealed [the Quran] to you [Mohammed] as had We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him, as had We revealed to Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron and Solomon, and as had We imparted to David the Psalms.

And messengers We mentioned to you [Mohammed] before and messengers We have not mentioned to you – But Moses did God speak to with a [hearable] speech.

Apostles [: messengers] that were: bearers of glad tidings, and warners; that men should have no argument against God, after [sending] the apostles; God is All-Mighty, Most Wise.

But God bears witness [for you, Mohammed,] to what He has revealed to you: He has revealed it with His knowledge, and the angels also bear witness [for you];
though God suffices as a Witness.

Surely, those who unbelieve and keep off [people] from the way of God, have [indeed] gone into so much error.

Surely, those who unbelieve [in the revelation of the Quran] and oppress [the believers] – God would not forgive them [their sins] neither will He guide them to any road [to Paradise] )
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:43 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,578,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMyTree View Post
Those are words. Not evidence. Just empty words with nothing to support itself, except for itself.

This is your insisting on your words which are not correct; if you were not in bias, you would study the aya before saying such words.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Arizona
222 posts, read 515,325 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_2828 View Post
What is islam? Something you should stay away from.
Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are very similar religions derived from the same root. Better stay away from all of them. Well better stay away from any religion.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:26 PM
 
787 posts, read 1,546,250 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
What relation has this to the discussion?
you asked me about the existence of the universe.
Quote:
This is an evasion to answer my question.
ok since I can't use subtlety, I don't know what the origin of existence is. I said that we are slowly learning it. We have learned what the likely origin of life is, so we'll probably eventually learn the origin of the universe. I'm sure some brilliant scientific minds have already got some ideas. But unlike yourself, I'm not just going to blindly believe a book without any evidence.
Quote:
The truth is the truth: has nothing to do whether a man lived now or 1500 years ago or more or less.
but how do you know it's the truth? Your argument is "it's written in this glorious book." If I write into a book that you murdered some famous person, do you think that any law court would take my book and use it as evidence against you? Because by your logic, they should be allowed to do that and use that book and only that book to convict you.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:45 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,487,985 times
Reputation: 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick.leviman View Post
Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are very similar religions derived from the same root. Better stay away from all of them. Well better stay away from any religion.
Islam and Christianity are not similar.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:46 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,578,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
you asked me about the existence of the universe.
I asked you in reply #8:
"Can anything come to existence without being made by any maker, or any action without a doer?"

But you answered in reply #19:
"There are many things we know now that we didn't a hundred or even a thousand years ago, but we are finding out."

So you want to wait a thousand of years, that scientists may discover things that came to existence without any maker!?

This is some logical and not experimental subject; even the oldest ancients had discussed it; and God guides whomever He please to the standard way of recognizing and glorifying Him alone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
ok since I can't use subtlety, I don't know what the origin of existence is. I said that we are slowly learning it. We have learned what the likely origin of life is, so we'll probably eventually learn the origin of the universe. I'm sure some brilliant scientific minds have already got some ideas.
The scientific measures, although very useful to our welfare and progress, are only relative; they cannot give absolute facts, and they are vulnerable to changes: as you said: we have now discovered that ancient scientists were wrong about many things, and the contemporary science may have many wrongs that will be discovered in the future.

Therefore, you cannot depend on such measures to found your doctrine; this is a matter of thinking, contemplating and is a matter of God's guidance.

So now, what probable origin of life, they have discerned?

While the universe is so tremendous, and its origin cannot be discerned by any limited practical measures; it is only logical and by reason way of thinking, that they may reach to some truth concerning that.

And whatever brilliant minds are there today, it may be there will come more brilliant men in the future, and so on. So don't depend on the brilliancy of others, but on your brain to think it yourself; because imitating others in this respect is not justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
But unlike yourself, I'm not just going to blindly believe a book without any evidence.
I am not blindly taking the Quran ayat, but the contemplation and pondering is a must, as in many ayat of the Glorious Quran, which includes many evidences and proofs.

See this aya 4: 82
أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا

The explanation:
(Will they not ponder the Quran? If it had been from [anyone] other than God they would have found therein much variation [from the ancient heavenly scriptures: the Torah and the Gospel, contradicting the monotheism.])

And this aya 47: 24
أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَى قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا
The explanation:
(So will they not meditate on the Quran? Or are there locks on [their] hearts?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
but how do you know it's the truth? Your argument is "it's written in this glorious book." If I write into a book that you murdered some famous person, do you think that any law court would take my book and use it as evidence against you? Because by your logic, they should be allowed to do that and use that book and only that book to convict you.
There is some fallacy here:
My argument is not "it's written in this glorious book"; but the argument itself is written in this glorious book. And I bring the ayat of the Quran to confirm the idea which is essentially present in the Quran itself; i.e. I display and defend the arguments of the Quran, and not my own inventions.

And even in your example of the crime mentioned in some book: if the crime is described in such book, and the evidence is proved in the book, and the witnesses are written, then this book will convict the criminal.

The Disagreement of the
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:24 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,578,239 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick.leviman View Post
Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are very similar religions derived from the same root. Better stay away from all of them. Well better stay away from any religion.

The religion of God essentially is to worship God alone without associate or patron.

But later on: the passing of the time and successive generations --> will lead to distortion of the original God's religion to some sort of idolatry and associating others with God.

You cannto stay away from God's religion; because it determines the fate and destiny of man, and his belief about the Creator and the afterlife.

Moreover, the religion of God originally invites people to devote themselves to God alone and to do every righteous and good work, and to avoid every evil act.

The best example is the Ten Commandments which starts by the devotion to God alone, then to be good with parents, then to avoid the stealing, the false witness, the adultery ...etc.

The Disagreement of the

The Disagreement of the
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Partisanship Is An Intellectual/Emotional Handicap
1,851 posts, read 1,877,875 times
Reputation: 1079
Still no evidence.

A book using itself as the all encompassing evidence of it's own proclamations, is neither evidence nor an indication of Truth.

It's simply self-interest, manipulation and brainwashing.
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Old 05-31-2009, 01:22 PM
 
5 posts, read 17,776 times
Reputation: 10
Most Muslims say they believe the Bible is the word of God, and then they say the Bible today is not the same one originally given by Jesus, and the past prophets. So they are saying the Bible for the most part is false. They then are denying the Koran. The Koran says that "God will preserve the Bible" so then the Bible today is accurate, but it must be correctly translated from the Greek, for the New Testament(NT). The Koran says not to believe everything told in the NT, for example at Romans 3:4,7, Paul says he is lying. In other words Jesus did not die to save those who believe he died for their sins. The Koran is telling us that Paul was honest when he said he would lie. The Koran says that religion could have been one, but God is testing us. So the lies in the NT make it look like the Koran, and the NT are different, but it is a test from God.
Science has explained how the body is built up by DNA, genetic coding, etc, and there are thousands of other marvels today science explains, but when it comes to the Bible, and Koran they will not get involved. Some frauds like Bucaille, MD who authored "The Bible The Quran and Science" will say things that are like Paul, half truths, lies, and some times tell the truth. What should happen is that science investigates the Quran, and the Bible, and then they write explanations like are found in chemistry, physics, biology, and so on where they scientifically establish the truth. If they would do that then they would teach that Jesus was not crucified, Jesus made another, Simon of cyrene to look like him, and Jesus escaped looking like Simon. They would teach that Peter was also a Prophet, that reincarnation is a fact, and that the past apostles have been reborn time and again. Some are even here now, alive today.
So many brilliant people in the world, but they will not do what is so simple to do, and explain the Holy Books. Again, that is merely another test that God asks of the brilliant scientist not to get involved in explaining what to them is obvious, but to ordinary people it is beyond their capacity to understand without help. So no help is given, scientists make powerful weapons, then ordinary people go out and kill because they failed their tests. A strange God it seems we have, but it is the only one. So we simply accept, and those of us who know the truth wonder when will the test end?
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