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Old 10-03-2009, 11:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
You're making up things as you go along in order to justify what you want to believe about your mythological god. If you read the account of Joseph of Arimathea asking Pontius Pilate for the body, and then immediately purchasing burial linens etc and going to take down the body and inter it, you would realize that your fanciful little addition to the story is not particularly plausible with the time line.

The description of the whole affair is pretty involved, the linen and the herbs and everything else. You think they just conveniently forgot to mention that they had to call stonemasons out in the middle of the night to alter a tomb? Besides which, have you ever pounded away on solid rock with primitive tools? I'll bet not, or you'd know it's not just a thing you can snap your fingers and have a large hole cut into rock.

This is of course playing along with you and pretending the whole story is actually true, and not a fairy tale.


700 B.C.: Isaiah prophesies that Jesus would be buried in a tomb given to him by a rich man.

Promise Isa. 53:9

Fulfillment: Matt. 27:57-60

Can't get any better then this!!!

Although, there is still controversy if the tomb that was found, was Jesus, this is still being questioned, There is a possibility, that they haven't found it yet.
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
We were not basing it on that at all.
Maybe you weren't, but go back and read the posts I was responding to and you will clearly see that's what it was being based upon.
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,081,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
700 B.C.: Isaiah prophesies that Jesus would be buried in a tomb given to him by a rich man.

Promise Isa. 53:9

Fulfillment: Matt. 27:57-60

Can't get any better then this!!!

Although, there is still controversy if the tomb that was found, was Jesus, this is still being questioned, There is a possibility, that they haven't found it yet.
Let me ask you a question.

If you were aware of a biblical prophecy, and you wanted to make it look like you were the fullfilment of the prophecy, wouldn't you just act out the prophecy?

You can't prophesize something that humans can do, because we can simply read it, and decide to do it. Then yeah, the prophecy came true, but its kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy.

I can write down that "A man will become king, whose father was drawn and quatered in 2100". So if someone reads it, and wants to make it real, they'll draw and quater someone in the year 2100, and perclaim their son king, and that I was a prophet.
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Old 10-03-2009, 08:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Let me ask you a question.

If you were aware of a biblical prophecy, and you wanted to make it look like you were the fullfilment of the prophecy, wouldn't you just act out the prophecy?

You can't prophesize something that humans can do, because we can simply read it, and decide to do it. Then yeah, the prophecy came true, but its kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy.

I can write down that "A man will become king, whose father was drawn and quatered in 2100". So if someone reads it, and wants to make it real, they'll draw and quater someone in the year 2100, and perclaim their son king, and that I was a prophet.
What about the Dead Sea Scrolls??

What about??................
Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”


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Old 10-03-2009, 08:57 PM
 
17,497 posts, read 10,672,030 times
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Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Maybe you weren't, but go back and read the posts I was responding to and you will clearly see that's what it was being based upon.
I haven't been to Isreal and it seems that justamere10, was showing us what those in Israel believe could be Jesus tomb.

I see were some believe it was the correct tomb and others are disputing the place.
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Utah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
I haven't been to Isreal and it seems that justamere10, was showing us what those in Israel believe could be Jesus tomb. I see were some believe it was the correct tomb and others are disputing the place.
That is correct. Many churches aggressively compete for tourists all over Israel, some of them within the same building, resulting in some interesting happenings.

The Garden Tomb was found relatively recently. Because the LDS Church has an unusual position in Israel with a university that has also become a coveted place to perform and attend cultural events located on the Mount of Olives, a large park just across the Kidron, etc. so perhaps because of that the Church was offered the Garden Tomb. But the offer was declined so that more people would be willing to visit the tomb as it would not be associated with a specific religious denomination.

Today there are usually throngs of tourists at the Garden Tomb and long lines of people waiting to enter. I was blessed with an opportunity to be almost alone inside the tomb with the door closed. I felt there, as many others have, that the Garden Tomb is the actual place of the first resurrection. In fact as I write this and search within myself for that confirmation, I can say that I am personally certain that it is.

But that will probably continue to be debated until the resurrected Savior himself takes up residence in Old Jerusalem as he said he would, and stays a thousand years...
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:35 AM
 
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thank you insan for your question


The idea of Jesus dying on the cross is central to the Christian belief. It represents the conviction that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. The crucifixion of Jesus is a vital doctrine in Christianity; however Muslims reject it completely. Before describing what Muslims believe about Jesus’ crucifixion, it may be useful to understand the Islamic reaction to the notion of original sin.
When Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree in paradise, they were not tempted by a serpent. It was Satan who deceived and cajoled them, whereupon they exercised their free will and made an error in judgement. Eve does not bear the burden of this mistake alone. Together, Adam and Eve realised their disobedience, felt remorse and begged for God’s forgiveness. God, in his infinite mercy and wisdom, forgave them. Islam has no concept of original sin; each person bears responsibility for his own deeds.
“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden”. (Quran 35:18)
There is no need for God, a son of God, or even a Prophet of God to sacrifice himself for mankind’s sins in order to buy forgiveness. Islam refuses this view entirely. The foundation of Islam rests on knowing with certainty that nothing should we worshipped but God alone. Forgiveness emanates from the One True God; so, when a person seeks forgiveness, he must turn to God submissively with true remorse and beg forgiveness, promising not to repeat the sin. Then and only then will sins be forgiven.
In the light of Islam’s understanding of original sin and forgiveness, we can see that Islam teaches that Jesus did not come to atone for the sins of mankind; rather, his purpose was to reaffirm the message of the Prophets before him.
“.. None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True God…” (Quran 3:62)
Muslims do not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus, nor do they believe that he died.
The Crucifixion

Jesus’ message was rejected by most of the Israelites as well as the Roman authorities. Those who believed formed a small band of followers around him, known as the disciples. The Israelites plotted and conspired against Jesus and formulated a plan to have him assassinated. He was to be executed in public, in a particularly gruesome manner, well known in the Roman Empire: crucifixion.
Crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die, and “citizens” of the Roman Empire were exempt from this punishment. It was designed to not only prolong the agony of death, but to mutilate the body. The Israelites planned this humiliating death for their Messiah – Jesus, the messenger of God. God in his infinite mercy prevented this abominable event by putting the resemblance of Jesus on somebody else and elevating Jesus alive, body and soul, to heaven. The Quran is silent about the exact details of just who this person was, but we know and believe with certainty that it was not Prophet Jesus.
Muslims believe that the Quran and the authentic narrations of Prophet Muhammad contain all the knowledge mankind needs in order to worship and live according to God’s commandments. Therefore, if small details are not explained, it is because God in His infinite wisdom has judged these details to be of no benefit to us. The Quran explains, in God’s own words, the conspiracy against Jesus and His plan to outwit the Israelites and raise Jesus to heaven.
“And they plotted to kill Jesus and God planned too. And God is the Best of the planners.” (Quran 3:54)
“And because of their boasting, "We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God." But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not. But God raised him Jesus up unto Himself. And God is Ever All­ Powerful, All­ Wise.” (Quran 4:157)
Jesus Did Not Die

The Israelites and the Roman authorities were not able to harm Jesus. God says clearly that He took Jesus up to Himself and cleared him of the false statements made in Jesus’ name.
“O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the forged statement that Jesus is God’s son.” (Quran 3:55)
In the previous verse, when God said He “will take” Jesus, he uses the word mutawaffeeka. Without a clear understanding of the richness of the Arabic language, and knowledge of the levels of meaning in many words, it may be possible to misunderstand God’s meaning. In the Arabic language today the word mutawaffeeka is sometimes used to denote death, or even sleep. In this verse of Quran, however, the original meaning is used and the comprehensiveness of the word denotes that God raised Jesus to himself, completely. Thus, he was alive at his ascension, body and soul, without any injury or defect.
Muslims believe Jesus is not dead, and that he will return to this world in the last days before the Day of Judgement. Prophet Mohammad said to his companions:
“How will you be when the son of Mary, Jesus descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel. (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)
God reminds us in the Quran that the Day of Judgement is a Day that we cannot avoid and cautions us that the descent of Jesus is a sign of its nearness.
“And he, Jesus, son of Mary shall be a known sign for the Hour. Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me! This is the Straight Path.” (Quran 43:61)
Therefore, the Islamic belief about Jesus’ crucifixion and death is clear. There was a plot to crucify Jesus but it did not succeed; Jesus did not die, but ascended to heaven. In the last days leading up to the Day of Judgement, Jesus will return to this world and continue his message.
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:09 AM
 
36 posts, read 49,447 times
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In The Name of Allah (God) The Most Compassionate The Most Merciful

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Old 10-04-2009, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,081,389 times
Reputation: 8620
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
What about the Dead Sea Scrolls??

What about??................
Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”


Again, if I saw a paper written, lets say 200 years before Christ that said,

"A woman named Mary will have a virgin birth of a son, who she will name Jesus. He will be born in Nazareth on December 25th, visited by three wise men. He will perform these miracles (inser miracles here), and then will be crucified by Romans after passover on the 30th year of his life in Jerusalem, and will rise from the dead after that" I might believe it.

However, the prophecies of the bible are far more encompassing than that, which is why several men claimed to be the Jewish Messiah in the time of Jesus. They all meet the criteria set forth by the prophecies you think of.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:44 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,465,414 times
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Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I was blessed with an opportunity to be almost alone inside the tomb with the door closed. I felt there, as many others have, that the Garden Tomb is the actual place of the first resurrection.
You feel that because you want to feel that. Little kids feel that Santa Claus is real, too.
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