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Old 09-08-2009, 06:32 AM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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I thought it was a very level headed and rational, albeit one-sided, look on the subject. I would like to hear a Muslim rebuttal on the film.

The conclusion I got from the film is that there are many peace loving Muslims. However, these folks are not orthodox Muslims. The orthodox Muslims who don't ignore any of the teachings are the terrorists and the fundamentalists who want to impose Sharia law on the rest of us.

As a westerner, we have much to fear. Even if more and more Muslims become a watered down variety because of their exposure to western culture, there will always be a group of Muslims which will stay true to the orthodox teachings of the religion. And those groups will always thrive in the poorer Muslim countries.

As a film, I highly recommend it. It is a bit disturbing and if accurate, makes me very glad to be a Christian. It also makes me aware that the Christians in this country need to increase their birth rate.
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:13 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
I thought it was a very level headed and rational, albeit one-sided, look on the subject. I would like to hear a Muslim rebuttal on the film.

The conclusion I got from the film is that there are many peace loving Muslims. However, these folks are not orthodox Muslims. The orthodox Muslims who don't ignore any of the teachings are the terrorists and the fundamentalists who want to impose Sharia law on the rest of us.

As a westerner, we have much to fear. Even if more and more Muslims become a watered down variety because of their exposure to western culture, there will always be a group of Muslims which will stay true to the orthodox teachings of the religion. And those groups will always thrive in the poorer Muslim countries.

As a film, I highly recommend it. It is a bit disturbing and if accurate, makes me very glad to be a Christian. It also makes me aware that the Christians in this country need to increase their birth rate.
Come on folks. Are you scared of this thread? I am not a hate monger. I have a close Muslim friend, so I didn't post this thread to spread hate. I would like peoples opinions if they saw the film. I would especially like to hear from Muslims on their opinion on the film and let me know where it is inaccurate. Thanks for responding.
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
I thought it was a very level headed and rational, albeit one-sided, look on the subject. I would like to hear a Muslim rebuttal on the film.

The conclusion I got from the film is that there are many peace loving Muslims. However, these folks are not orthodox Muslims. The orthodox Muslims who don't ignore any of the teachings are the terrorists and the fundamentalists who want to impose Sharia law on the rest of us.

As a westerner, we have much to fear. Even if more and more Muslims become a watered down variety because of their exposure to western culture, there will always be a group of Muslims which will stay true to the orthodox teachings of the religion. And those groups will always thrive in the poorer Muslim countries.

As a film, I highly recommend it. It is a bit disturbing and if accurate, makes me very glad to be a Christian. It also makes me aware that the Christians in this country need to increase their birth rate.
Of course some Muslims are whacked out crazy. However, can the same not be said about Christians.

Christians will tell you they believe every word in the bible to be that of God. However, the bible tells you to kill non believers, kill homosexuals, not wear clothes of two types of materials, women aren't supposed to wear pants, you can't eat pork, etc.....

The difference between Christianity and Islam, in my opinion, is world exposure. More people have been exposed to Christianity, so its been more watered down by moderate voices. Islam, hasn't had the same time, and the same exposure as of yet.

Its getting there though, and thats what scares me. You've got to remember that when Christianity really caught on, we had the inquisitions, the crusades, and countless other Christian inspired murder and hate. I believe that Islam will have to go through this same expansion period, before it gets to its inevitable slow contraction, as Christianity is seeing today.

I don't want to be ruled by Christian, Jewish, or Muslim law. I'll take the law of man over the law of their "God" any day of the week. We may be heartless sometimes, but we don't kill just because God tells us to.
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:04 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Of course some Muslims are whacked out crazy. However, can the same not be said about Christians.

Christians will tell you they believe every word in the bible to be that of God. However, the bible tells you to kill non believers, kill homosexuals, not wear clothes of two types of materials, women aren't supposed to wear pants, you can't eat pork, etc.....

The difference between Christianity and Islam, in my opinion, is world exposure. More people have been exposed to Christianity, so its been more watered down by moderate voices. Islam, hasn't had the same time, and the same exposure as of yet.

Its getting there though, and thats what scares me. You've got to remember that when Christianity really caught on, we had the inquisitions, the crusades, and countless other Christian inspired murder and hate. I believe that Islam will have to go through this same expansion period, before it gets to its inevitable slow contraction, as Christianity is seeing today.

I don't want to be ruled by Christian, Jewish, or Muslim law. I'll take the law of man over the law of their "God" any day of the week. We may be heartless sometimes, but we don't kill just because God tells us to.
I disagree with you on many fronts.

For one thing, Christianity is founded on a NEW convenant and not the old convenant ways. All the "kill" verses you reference are located in the Old Testament and therefore are mostly not valid today. That's not to say that all Old Testament verses are to be ignored, but those involved with killing and works of the Jewish faith are essentially now null and void.

Another disagreement I have with your statements is the Islamic religion basically tells it's folks to try to take over the world by force if necessary and, yes, you don't have to convert, but if you don't, you will be treated as a second class citizen (dhimmitude). In the Bible, there is reference to spreading God's word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to the corners of the world. However, it is to be done by speaking and writing. Muslims get all upset when it's mentioned that Islam was spread by the sword, but the facts are facts. The lack of any significant non-Muslim population in the Middle East is proof enough that non-Muslim was either persecuted, driven-out, or killed. All these countries once upon a time had significant Christian populations.

I agree with the premise of separation of church and state and to be a free society, you cannot have a state sponsored religion, however if you think that the laws of your land had no influence from orthodox Judaeo-Christian values, then you are mistaken. Is this a Judaeo-Christian based country? You bet it is.

Yes, I am a Christian. But to compare Christianity and Islam to each other and state that they have the same goals and methods, is just plain ignorance of both religions.
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,069,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
I disagree with you on many fronts.

For one thing, Christianity is founded on a NEW convenant and not the old convenant ways. All the "kill" verses you reference are located in the Old Testament and therefore are mostly not valid today. That's not to say that all Old Testament verses are to be ignored, but those involved with killing and works of the Jewish faith are essentially now null and void.

Another disagreement I have with your statements is the Islamic religion basically tells it's folks to try to take over the world by force if necessary and, yes, you don't have to convert, but if you don't, you will be treated as a second class citizen (dhimmitude). In the Bible, there is reference to spreading God's word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to the corners of the world. However, it is to be done by speaking and writing. Muslims get all upset when it's mentioned that Islam was spread by the sword, but the facts are facts. The lack of any significant non-Muslim population in the Middle East is proof enough that non-Muslim was either persecuted, driven-out, or killed. All these countries once upon a time had significant Christian populations.

I agree with the premise of separation of church and state and to be a free society, you cannot have a state sponsored religion, however if you think that the laws of your land had no influence from orthodox Judaeo-Christian values, then you are mistaken. Is this a Judaeo-Christian based country? You bet it is.

Yes, I am a Christian. But to compare Christianity and Islam to each other and state that they have the same goals and methods, is just plain ignorance of both religions.
Jesus said that you are to follow his fathers laws, which is the same as saying that the laws of Moses (which are supposed to be his fathers laws) are to be followed.

I've heard the argument before that Christ created a new covenant. For me, its the only logical explanation. However, Christ never said that homosexuality was bad. Christ never said that you had to be baptised. Christ never said a lot of the things that you as a Christian follow and believe.

I find it contradictory that Christians will tell you that Christ created a new covenant, and then will turn around and point to the old testament for proof he was the Messiah, and to support their moral positions. For me, you've either got to follow all of it if you are going to call yourself a Christian. After all, it is the "Word of God!"

And if you think Christians haven't tried to spread the word by the sword, gun, hands, knives, or any other killing device, you are sorely mistaken. I would suggest that you research the Crusades and the American colonization.
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:43 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,334,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Jesus said that you are to follow his fathers laws, which is the same as saying that the laws of Moses (which are supposed to be his fathers laws) are to be followed.

I've heard the argument before that Christ created a new covenant. For me, its the only logical explanation. However, Christ never said that homosexuality was bad. Christ never said that you had to be baptised. Christ never said a lot of the things that you as a Christian follow and believe.

I find it contradictory that Christians will tell you that Christ created a new covenant, and then will turn around and point to the old testament for proof he was the Messiah, and to support their moral positions. For me, you've either got to follow all of it if you are going to call yourself a Christian. After all, it is the "Word of God!"

And if you think Christians haven't tried to spread the word by the sword, gun, hands, knives, or any other killing device, you are sorely mistaken. I would suggest that you research the Crusades and the American colonization.
You are obviously a lefty. So be it.

Like most anti-Christian folks you believe the Crusades were offensive in nature and were the result of the Catholic Church wanting to spread Christianity. But such was not the case. In fact the Church even did nothing after Jerusalem was taken over by the Muslims. It wasn't until the Church discovered that folks were being murdered or blocked on their pilgrimage to the Holy Land. That forced the Christians to organize and act. They went to Jerusalem to PROTECT their members. The whole Crusade began as a defensive measure. So you might want to dig a little deeper.

American colonization was a loose association of Christian folks that really were just greedy of land and money and just hid behind the stated purpose of protestant Christian conversion. Besides, what would this country be like if there wasn't British colonization and American expansion. We'd either be Native American or Mexican Native American or Spanish. Is that what you would have preferred. I like how you have taken advantage of the spoils of war, but then denounce it. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Besides, what would this country be like if there wasn't British colonization and American expansion. We'd either be Native American... Is that what you would have preferred.
Yep...absolutely. I would much prefer that. But then, I am a Native American.
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Old 09-08-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,069,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
You are obviously a lefty. So be it.

Like most anti-Christian folks you believe the Crusades were offensive in nature and were the result of the Catholic Church wanting to spread Christianity. But such was not the case. In fact the Church even did nothing after Jerusalem was taken over by the Muslims. It wasn't until the Church discovered that folks were being murdered or blocked on their pilgrimage to the Holy Land. That forced the Christians to organize and act. They went to Jerusalem to PROTECT their members. The whole Crusade began as a defensive measure. So you might want to dig a little deeper.

American colonization was a loose association of Christian folks that really were just greedy of land and money and just hid behind the stated purpose of protestant Christian conversion. Besides, what would this country be like if there wasn't British colonization and American expansion. We'd either be Native American or Mexican Native American or Spanish. Is that what you would have preferred. I like how you have taken advantage of the spoils of war, but then denounce it. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?

The crusades were military expeditions launched against the
Muslims by the Christians in an attempt to regain the Holy Land. They
took place between 1095 A.D. and 1270 A.D. It was one of the most
violent periods in the history of mankind.
The starting point of the crusades was on November 18, 1095
A.D. when Pope Urban II opened the Council of Clermont. On November
27, outside the French city of Clermont-Ferrand, the Pope made an
important speech . He called upon everyone to help the Christians in
the east to restore peace. The crowd's response was very positive.
Garments were cut into crosses which were attached to people's
shoulders in an imitation of Christ (Matthew 10:38).(1) The original
object of the First Crusade was to help Christian churches in the
east. The new goal became to free the Holy Land from Muslim control,
especially Jerusalem.
Pope Urban II stayed in France until September 1096 to provide
leadership and guidance for the members of the First Crusade. He
urged churchmen to preach the cross in France. Urban wanted the
crusading army to be mostly made up of knights and other military
personnel. Since the news of his speech at Clermont spread through
the west, people from all social classes and occupations joined the
Crusade. As a result of Urban losing control of personnel, violence
was launched against the Jews of northern France. This violence was
mostly instigated by bands of the urban and rural poor led by men like
Peter the Hermit and Walter Sans-Avoir.



Urban, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all the faithful, both princes and subjects, waiting in Flanders; greeting, apostolic grace, and blessing. Your brotherhood, we believe, has long since learned from many accounts that a barbaric fury has deplorably afflicted an laid waste the churches of God in the regions of the Orient. More than this, blasphemous to say, it has even grasped in intolerabe servitude its churches and the Holy City of Christ, glorified b His passion and resurrection. Grieving with pious concern at this calamity, we visited the regions of Gaul and devoted ourselves largely to urging the princes of the land and their subjects to free the churches of the East. We solemnly enjoined upon them at the council of Auvergne (the accomplishment of) such an undertaking, as a preparation for the remission of all their sins. And we have constituted our most beloved son, Adhemar, Bishop of Puy, leader of this expedition and undertaking in our stead, so that those who, perchance, may wish to undertake this journey should comply With his commands, as if they were our own, and submit fully to his loosings or bindings, as far as shall seem to belong to such an office. If, moreover, there are any of your people whom God has inspired to this vow, let them know that he (Adhemar) will set out with the aid of God on the day of the Assumption of the Blessed Mary, and that they can then attach themselves to his following.


And of course the Inquisition

The Spanish Inquisition was an ecclesiastical tribunal started in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to replace the medieval inquisition which was under papal control. The new body was under the direct control of the Spanish monarchy. It was not definitively abolished until 1834, during the reign of Isabella II.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
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The "righteous" can be very misguided if they try to force people to "get saved or else." The Indians didn't dare oppose them. "White missionaries have big thunder stick." And they changed the attire, language, shipped their children off. Imagine Indians trying to do that to the White Christians today ? The Televangelists would be howling. "$end money waaahhh. Help u$ to $ top thi$ terrible $courge."
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:05 PM
juj juj started this thread
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Reputation: 330
You are all right and I am so wrong. I will go back my hole now.
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