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Old 09-28-2009, 07:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
thanx , but the actual verse say somthing different than what you said ,

Yusuf Ali 106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Pickthal 106: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?


and i understand this verse as to be talking about abrogation of previous scripture and replace it by quran, not abrogations within quran itself

and the previous verse of this one support my view , as for it talking about jews
105-Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture nor the idolaters love that there should be sent down unto you any good thing from your Lord. But Allah chooseth for His mercy whom He will, and Allah is of Infinite Bounty.

again in the verse 109 from the same chapter it says

Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.

101. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them know not.

102. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

please be logical a little bit...
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:03 AM
 
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1. Alif. Lám. Rá. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things):

2. (It teacheth) that ye should worship none but Allah. (Say): "Verily I am (sent) unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad tidings:

here evidently, mohammad speaks. if this is a revelation from allah which means a word of god, why mohammad speaks. in the original scripture, there is no related word implying SAY. in the english version , it was added by the writer as it seems contradictory...
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Old 09-28-2009, 08:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanuagemaniac View Post
YUSUFALI: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.


According to the instruction given in Quran 4.11, 12 and 176, if a man dies and leav behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents, His wife’s share of his inheritance is 1/8. (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth) His daughters would receive 2/3 (if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance and his parents each will get 1/6 of his inheritance. (For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children When you add all these fractions the sum is more than the total of inheritance. Wife1/8 = 3/24 Daughters 2/3 = 16/24 Father 1/6 = 4/24 Mother1/6 = 4/24 Total = 27/24

it doesnt add up to 1.if you are able to answer this question in a logical way, I will be a muslim.
I think allah doesnt know accounting or mohammad wrote this book.which one is logical do you think?

By God's help, I shall answer the guilty, and break the backbone of the association and enthusiasm.

FIRST:
The distribution of the inheritance of the deceased in case he left behind: three daughters and his father and mother:

To the three daughters --> 2/3 of the inheritance,
And the remaining 1/3 to his parents: to each of his father and mother 1/6

This is in case the deceased did not leave behind a wife: either his wife is dead or divorced before his death.

SECOND:
But in case he has a wife whom he left behind: her share is fixed 1/8, then the rest will be divided between the 3 daughters and his father and mother.

And here the division is complete and no defect can be said.

The indication that this is true, is what you claimed with your cunning: 27/24 the alleged defect that you said is 3/24 which is 1/8 which is in fact the share of the wife.

Therefore, the first division is in case he has no wife,

while if he has wife then her share is fixed and standard: 1/8 , then the rest will be divided 2/3 for the daughters and 1/3 for his father and mother.

Last edited by eanassir; 09-28-2009 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanuagemaniac View Post
quoting eanassir: "I think if truly Mohammed married this noble woman, it may be at least 15 years or older."

what is your evidence ? I gave you an authentic hadith from buhari. dont be ridiculious....

See that you are only an adversary?

I told you: it is only the Quran that is authentic; all the rest of traditions and narrations have to be checked and investigated to know are they true or fabricated.

And this isn't logical, that he marries a girl in such age; although girls become sexually mature earlier than boys.

And I heard some women speaking about an Arab: a man (say in his 35 or more) married a young woman (say in her twenties);

those women said: "She is a child (they mean she is much younger than he is); how can he marry such a poor child?"

This is because usually they exaggerate things.

And BTW there are other narrations that this noble wife of the Prophet was much older; so why do you go to the first narration and leave the rest, if you are fair and just as do you claim?
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniMae1 View Post
What have we all learned from this thread? I'd say that it is obvious that the quaran is just as full of silliness and contradictions as the bible.

On the contrary, the Quran is full of wisdom, and it is the light of guidance to all humanity.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanuagemaniac View Post
ahahahahahahah we can easily see who has blind faith)))) you say there is no abrogation, but your book says:

When we CANCEL a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?

The Quran abrogated or annulled the Torah

The interpretation according to the late interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan al-Hilly:

When the Quranic aya 6: 147 was revealed
وَعَلَى الَّذِينَ هَادُواْ حَرَّمْنَا كُلَّ ذِي ظُفُرٍ وَمِنَ الْبَقَرِ وَالْغَنَمِ حَرَّمْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ شُحُومَهُمَا إِلاَّ مَا حَمَلَتْ ظُهُورُهُمَا أَوِ الْحَوَايَا أَوْ مَا اخْتَلَطَ بِعَظْمٍ ذَلِكَ جَزَيْنَاهُم بِبَغْيِهِمْ وِإِنَّا لَصَادِقُونَ

The explanation:
(To those Jews We forbade every [animal] with undivided hoof [and chews the cud.]

And of oxen and sheep forbade We to them the fat thereof save what [fat] the backs of both do bear, or the entrails, or what is mixed up with bone [being not forbidden.]

That [prohibition] We awarded them for their “wrongdoing and transgression.”

And [certainly] We are truthful [in that We have told you of their transgression and rebellion against Moses, their prophet.])

So Prophet Mohammed said: "God, make the statements easy for my nation."

Then this aya 2: 106 was revealed:
مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللّهَ عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

The explanation:
(Such of the signs [of the revelations of the Torah] as We may annul or preserve We will bring [in the Quran] one better than it or one similar to it.

Don't you know that God is Omnipotent over all things?)

The interpretation:
>> (Such of the signs [of the revelations of the Torah] as We may annul) and delete its obligation for you, Muslims

>> (or preserve) : i.e. keep it dutiful for you as it is in the Torah

>> (We will bring [in the Quran] one better than it) i.e. a statement better than that of the Torah and easier for you, Muslims

>> (or one similar to it.) i.e. we leave the statement which is not annulled or abrogated of the Torah, and keep it in the Quran as it is in the Torah.

>> (Don't you [Mohammed] know that God is Omnipotent over all things?)

Therefore, He gives you easier and milder statements than the statements of the Torah.

So the word نَنسَخْ means We annul or abrogate i.e. We abolish its statements and give to you another statement instead of it.

While the word نُنسِهَا means: We leave it as it is; this is like His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 7: 51
فَالْيَوْمَ نَنسَاهُمْ كَمَا نَسُواْ لِقَاء يَوْمِهِمْ هَذَا

The explanation:
(Therefore, We shall today forget about them as did they forget about the meeting of this their day)

It means: We leave them be in Hell, just as did they forgot and neglected this day and did not prepare and strive for it.

Hence, the Quran is unchangeable, and includes not any abrogation; but the Torah is abrogated and the Quran is the abrogating or annulling of the Torah.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanuagemaniac View Post
contradictions going on....

abrogation in quran.

Surah 16:101

]When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

None can change the words of God;
-- Sura 6:34

Does the concept of the abrogator and abrogated, changing in the quran verses, cancelling and abating them accord with the verity of the quran being infinite in a conserved tablet?So did the cancellation or change happen also in the conserved tablet? or had the conserved tablet revised or modified versions? and when the prophet forgot some verses, arent they supposed to exist in the conserved tablet ( levhi mahfuz in arabic) so why he didnt send Gabriel again to remind him with what he had forgotten.

The rocky tract chapter( suratul Hicr): It is we who have sent down the quran and surely we will guard it.

So according to the quran, god guards his words from changing or alternation and what is abrogation? it is nothing but changing and alternation of the quran so , how did that happen?

the most hazardousness of the abrogation is in the verse of the women chapter en Nisa the women ayah 82.Had it been from other than allah, they surely have found therein much contradiction

[b]is not enough to have 550 quran verses that had been abrogated changed or replaced from the quran to prove the presence of much contradictionand to saatisfy the reqirement set forth by the verse implied....

http://www.fatherzakaria.net/books/q...20-Episode.pdf

to be continued.....

The Quran abrogated or annulled the Torah/2

The interpretation is according to the late interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan al-Hilly:

The aya 2: 106 is similar to this aya 16: 101
وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَا آيَةً مَّكَانَ آيَةٍ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُفْتَرٍ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ

The explanation:
(When We substitute [the statement of] one revelation [in the Quran] for [another] revelation [in the Torah],

– and God knows best what He reveals –

they [: Jews] say: "[O Mohammed] you are only a forger [because you have brought some statements other those in the Torah]."

But most of them are not acquainted [about the truth.])



The Quran is affirmative and unchangeable

Hence, the Quran does not include any abrogation as do Muslims think; but all of it is affirmed and unchangeable.

This is indicated by many ayat, like the aya 6: 34
وَلاَ مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ وَلَقدْ جَاءكَ مِن نَّبَإِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

The explanation:
(For there is none that can alter the words of God; and already have you received some account of those apostles [or messengers.])

Moreover, God said-be exalted- in the Quran 6: 115
وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقًا وَعَدْلاً لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

The explanation:
( [O Mohammed,] your Lord’s word [of promise to the messengers and the believers] has been fulfilled in truthfulness and justice;

none may change His words ;

He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.)


In addition, God-be exalted- said in the Quran 10: 65
لَهُمُ الْبُشْرَى فِي الْحَياةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الآخِرَةِ لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

The explanation:
(For them is good tidings in the life of this World and in the Hereafter

No change can there be in the words of God

That [indeed] is the supreme success.)
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:22 PM
 
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Some statements of the Torah were abrogated by the Quran, and others are kept as they are in the Torah and the Quran.

Among the statements which God made lawful to Muslims while they were prohibited in the Torah are some meats and fat that were prohibited for Jews, and many other statements.

While the statements that God let unlawful for Muslims as were they unlawful for Jews are like: eating of the swine meat, the blood and the dead animal and that which is immolated or sacrificed to those other than God Almighty.

In addition to the wine, which is prohibited in the Torah, as is it prohibited in the Quran.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanuagemaniac View Post
101. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them know not.

102. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

please be logical a little bit...

The interpretation is according to the late interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan al-Hilly:

Here is the ayat 16: 101-102
وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَا آيَةً مَّكَانَ آيَةٍ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُفْتَرٍ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ . قُلْ نَزَّلَهُ رُوحُ الْقُدُسِ مِن رَّبِّكَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَهُدًى وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ

The explanation:
(When We substitute [the statement of] one revelation [in the Quran] for [the statement of another] revelation [in the Torah],

– and God knows best what He reveals –

they [: Jews] say: "[O Mohammed] you are only a forger [because you have brought some statements other those in the Torah]."

But most of them are not acquainted [about the truth.]

Say: "[Gabriel] The Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from your Lord
[O Mohammed] with the true [religion],

in order to confirm [the faith of] those who believe,

and as a guidance and glad tidings to Muslims [who surrender to God.]")
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:46 PM
 
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Those claims result in these premises, a dilemma for Muslims (verbatim):
  • The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel are all Allah’s Word.
  • The current Torah, Psalms and Gospel are corrupted.
  • The final word of Allah, the Quran is preserved.

1st Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted
2nd Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.



My summary on errors:

Christians see them in the Koran.
Muslims see them in the Bible.
Atheists see them in both.
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