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Old 11-02-2009, 07:41 AM
 
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[quote=InsaneInDaMembrane;11402321]Blasphemy is in the eyes/ears of the beholder/listener, Jazzy. No Muslim or Christian consulted me to ask me to get my opinion on whether I agree with this or that being blasphemous but yet I am forced to agree with them on what I had no part of???



Yes, you weren't consulted........ That doesn't change anything. Insults are insults and the word blasphemy has a specific meaning. Are you seriously saying that because you don't happen to agree its not an insult and thus not blasphemy? I don't happen to agree with most of Islam, or Christianity. I also see Muslims as seeing a whole group as somehow responsible. I also see lots of Americans lumping all Muslims into a whole group too.

No one is saying you personally supposed to agree or disagree, its a simple fact and you can look up the word in the dictionary. Its also a fact that the perception in many muslim see their prophet being insulted. How they deal with it is the problem..
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Old 11-02-2009, 07:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Where do you live??? Did you see what happened when the Danes published not so glorious pics of Muhammad? Did you see what happened to Geert Wilder when he criticized Islam? You remembered what happened to Salman Rushdie when he published those passages from the Koran that were left out (Satanic Verses)? Those are a few notorious examples but they are by far fewer that the ridicule Jesus and Christianity gets just by taking a casual browse on the net.

I don't tend to browse the net. I'm talking about public, in your face, printed publications. I would bet that if I looked I'd fine a whole array of negative stuff about about all sorts of religious people.

Yes I saw all those items you refer to. I still stand by my statement that in my neck of the woods I tend not to see to many publications that insult Jesus, there have been more insulting the prophet Muhammad.

And it may simply be that when Christianity or Jesus is insulted folks don't take to the street like Muslims do so it goes under my radar.
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,388,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
There are many peaceful Muslims who abhor those who act like that. Who live in peace with there neighbors. But like other religions they have folks who are fundamentalist and see the world in black and white. I have attended 2 synagogues in my area that not only have outreach to the Muslim community but share space with the Muslims so they will have a prayer space.

These Muslims are just ordinary Americans who just want to worship, raise their children, be successful and live in peace.

Islam is not the only religion with people who act in absolutely violent ways. It is just the most recent. There have been others in history. But in the race to condemn Muslims folks seem to forget that.
I'm jumping in here, but I remember a few years back that a media crew went on an investigatory fact-finding mission in L.A. to a number of Muslim mosques and interviewed, or tried to, some of the everyday visitors there.

First-off, most of the quiet unassuming Muslims didn't want their faces or recognizable features (voice, etc.) on TV. Why not? retribution? Many did not want to discuss the topic or give an answer.

Second, a standard question was:" Why don't you self-police your own if you despise radial Isman? Why not turn in the guys who try to foment religious fanaticism? In general, if some guy came into the local Baptist or Presbyterian church and shouted that everyone should all go down and machete to death the "infidels", we'd probably physically restrain him and call the cops.

Doesn't seem to be the consensus in the Islamic faith. Remember the cheering in the streets on TV when the world Trade Centers were hit. Basically "hit" by Islam. Now, especially if the immam or elder nods knowingly, it seems to be OK to make speeches about "getting the West". And then, equally apparent, acting on such ideas. With no internal self-disciplinary consequences. Perhaps even private adoration and idolatry?

Then, it also seems that an internal violent reaction to any level of disobedience by a Muslim, or any questioning of the elders, is A-OK.

The Qu'Ran does specifically set out the deaths of infidels as an ideal situation. That they (we?) should be sought out and "dispatched" with extreme prejudice.

So... we should accept folks' statements that the majority of Muslims are a nice peaceful, fun-loving and tolerant group? Is that a fair and accurate statement?
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:24 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Yes, you weren't consulted........ That doesn't change anything. Insults are insults and the word blasphemy has a specific meaning.
To whom, Jazzy? Again, isn't it in the eye/ear of the beholder/listener?

Quote:
Are you seriously saying that because you don't happen to agree its not an insult and thus not blasphemy?
Technically speaking, it is an insult and blasphemy to them because THEY made it to be such and then hold the rest of the world accountable for WHAT decided others can and cannot say out of observation. I know (and believe) that people should consider others when they speak or act. I am a firm believer in this, however, what we are speaking here about is Muslims basically stating that their prophet is OFF limits to ANY criticism because in their eyes, that is blasphemy. We're talking about a mere man here when you think of it.


Quote:
I also see lots of Americans lumping all Muslims into a whole group too.
I'm sure, as I see it too but I'm not in that group.

No one is saying you personally supposed to agree or disagree...[/quote]

But disagreeing, to some radical Muslims, is NOT an option and to disagree with their religion or their prophet CAN be perceived as blasphemy.

Quote:
Its also a fact that the perception in many muslim see their prophet being insulted.
Isn't that THEIR problem THEY created and not mine?


Quote:
How they deal with it is the problem..
It sure is.
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:28 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Yes I saw all those items you refer to. I still stand by my statement that in my neck of the woods I tend not to see to many publications that insult Jesus, there have been more insulting the prophet Muhammad.
Okay, I see you live in the south. Seeing blasphemous representations of Jesus on the roadside might get a person killed down in those parts or doing so is of no importance. In any event, I was speaking about the internet and even TV.

Quote:
And it may simply be that when Christianity or Jesus is insulted folks don't take to the street like Muslims do so it goes under my radar.
True. The terror that Christianity once was in places like Europe has long since been beaten down and there are some folks who will ridicule it, beat it down and keep it down so it never, ever reaches its glory days of oppression EVER again!
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:49 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Rifleman you reminded me of something. What you stated is a constant complaint from observers. If Islam is a "religion of peace," where are the moderates to reign in their radicals? I take it there are some out there but it often seems their voices are but a whimper because self preservation takes precedent. Hardly a moderate wants to challenge these kill-happy clowns by telling them to cool it and handle things with civility.

In the video below you will see an example of what I mean. The woman, Ayaan Ali is currently under death threats because of her criticisms of elements of the Islamic faith and how it is lived out by SOME of its adherents. She is here debating a 'peaceful' Muslim (not sue what is talking about half of the times), but in part 3, listen carefully to how he responds to the French reporter's question. He seems to sidestep the issue and refuses to condemn a particular practice.


YouTube - Debate between Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Tariq Ramadan - Part 1of3
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,432,118 times
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>>>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
I'm jumping in here, but I remember a few years back that a media crew went on an investigatory fact-finding mission in L.A. to a number of Muslim mosques and interviewed, or tried to, some of the everyday visitors there.
First-off, most of the quiet unassuming Muslims didn't want their faces or recognizable features (voice, etc.) on TV. Why not?
retribution? Many did not want to discuss the topic or give an answer. <<<<<<

Maybe mistrust? When they have felt blamed as a whole group its understandable. Also in Islam drawings of the human form is not allowed so you don't see pictures of humans. That often crosses over to pictures. So many very orthodox Muslims don't want their pictures taken. Many women don't want their pictures taken. the local mosque has been in the news often and they gladly welcome new people in and they allow filming. You won't see pictures or art with the human form in mosques only the calligraphy as artwork.

>>>>>Second, a standard question was:" Why don't you self-police your own if you despise radial Isman? Why not turn in the guys who try to foment religious fanaticism? In general, if some guy came into the local Baptist or Presbyterian church and shouted that everyone should all go down and machete to death the "infidels", we'd probably physically restrain him and call the cops.<<<<<

The local Imam actually does work with the FBI, He has come under fire from fundamentalists. He has put his life at risk for doing so yet he continues. He preaches peace and works with the local religious community also.

>>>>>>Doesn't seem to be the consensus in the Islamic faith. Remember the cheering in the streets on TV when the world Trade Centers were hit. Basically "hit" by Islam. Now, especially if the immam or elder nods knowingly, it seems to be OK to make speeches about "getting the West". And then, equally apparent, acting on such ideas. With no internal self-disciplinary consequences. Perhaps even private adoration and idolatry?<<<<<<,

Its to bad the sadness in the Muslim world wasn't filmed. There was sadness. There was sadness in this country too. That is what makes me sad.

>>>.Then, it also seems that an internal violent reaction to any level of disobedience by a Muslim, or any questioning of the elders, is A-OK.
The Qu'Ran does specifically set out the deaths of infidels as an ideal situation. That they (we?) should be sought out and "dispatched" with extreme prejudice.
So... we should accept folks' statements that the majority of Muslims are a nice peaceful, fun-loving and tolerant group? Is that a fair and accurate statement?
<<<<

I guess my only answer is that Islam does not have the only hand in the cookie jar of violence. It is just the most recent.
What about the crusades? What about the Inquisition? That had the stamp of religious approval.

Its really easy to take ayats our to context and unless you understand that they were written for a specfic group at a specific time you will not understand why they were written.


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Old 11-02-2009, 05:13 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,432,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
To whom, Jazzy? Again, isn't it in the eye/ear of the beholder/listener?


Technically speaking, it is an insult and blasphemy to them because THEY made it to be such and then hold the rest of the world accountable for WHAT decided others can and cannot say out of observation. I know (and believe) that people should consider others when they speak or act. I am a firm believer in this, however, what we are speaking here about is Muslims basically stating that their prophet is OFF limits to ANY criticism because in their eyes, that is blasphemy. We're talking about a mere man here when you think of it.


I'm sure, as I see it too but I'm not in that group.

No one is saying you personally supposed to agree or disagree...
But disagreeing, to some radical Muslims, is NOT an option and to disagree with their religion or their prophet CAN be perceived as blasphemy.

Isn't that THEIR problem THEY created and not mine?


It sure is.[/quote]




An insult is an insult regardless and I don't have to agree or disagree with a person to understand insulting behavior. And many of the caricatures of the prophet have been insulting. If the caricatures had been of Jesus, Christians would have been upset just not marching in the streets one would hope.

The other issues the caricatures seem to come from western countries and that is another problem. Muslims from Muslim countries already feel under attack from the west and then they perceive their prophet as being under attack.

How they chose to deal with it is the issue.

But you are right they do need to understand that folks are going to say stuff they may see as an insult and they do need to deal with their anger in a different way.

I do happen to think that the caricatures were supposed to be insulting and they got a reaction.

The recent blood libel against the Jews in the news article from a European paper was put out without an ounce of evidence basically accused the israelis of taking body parts from Palestinians was of the same ilk.

I have freedom of the press, so I can print anything I want and it doesn't matter who it hurts.

I think much of your posting is full of Islamophobia like so many others.
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,927 posts, read 31,819,366 times
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Islamaphobia is well earned.
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