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Old 11-05-2009, 07:45 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,959,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Fort Hood shooter was recent convert to Islam
No he isn't. But what flaw in your character deems that you should just make up crap to satisfy your bigotry or hatred?

Quote:
The cousin described him as a pious lifelong Muslim.
Nidal Malik Hasan, Suspected Fort Hood Shooter, Was Psychiatrist - ABC News

But beleving in imaginary sky daddies does cause people to do some radical crap, and it doesn't matter which of the many imaginary sky daddies they happen to follow. I feel pretty certain that your exposed hatred from your opening post is in fact rooted deep in your belief in some imaginary spook, and I betcha you also think it is justified!

Until we rid the world of religion, hatred will continue unabated.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:47 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,991,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post


Why exactly is the US army enlisting muslims? I get the ACLU argument, but why?

Time to take a leaf out of Indian, Chinese and Pakistani armies. Profiling can work sometimes.
May be a shock to you but muslims have also died for the serving the US forces. If you are disriminating on the basis of religion, you do not get ACLU argument.

Dont know about Chinese / Pak armies but muslims constitute a significant population of India and discrimination against recruiting them will topple governments. Its forces are also secular / voluntary - just like the US. From http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?230513:
The 1971 Indo-Pak war is assumed to be the apogee of achievement for our armed forces. But it also underscored another fact—the Indian army was headed by a Zoroastrian, Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw. Lt General J.S. Aurora, commander of the forces in the east, was a Sikh. His lieutenant and the chief architect of India’s victory, Captain J.R.F. Jacob, is a Jew. Some of the memorable flying men in war were Christians. Brigadier L.P. Sen, who described Nehru’s order to halt the counter-offensive against the 1947 Pak-sponsored tribal invasion in J&K as the most unpatriotic order he received in his army career, was a Christian. Apart from Hindus and Sikhs, a Muslim and Christian have also been recipients of the Param Vir Chakra (highest medal of honor/ bravery).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
First off the US Army is volunteer..
Secondly American Muslims are allowed to serve their country as much as American Catholics, Protestants or Atheists are..
True. Same for the Indian army (see above).
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,556,091 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehoiada View Post
It amazes me that Christians seem to forget some of the atrocities that were committed in the name of Christianity. In Europe, many a war was started at the urging of the Catholic Church. Isn't that why here in the US there is such a thing as separation of church and state? In the past, Christians didn't seem to have a problem with giving Indians blankets infested with smallpox. What about the Spanish Conquistadors who wiped out almost an entire race of people searching for El Dorado, the City of Gold. Then there's my favorite: The KKK, devout Baptists, who thought nothing of lynching a black man. The are extremist in every religion. When pushed to far you push back.
Somebody's back
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,556,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
May be a shock to you but muslims have also died for the serving the US forces. If you are disriminating on the basis of religion, you do not get ACLU argument.

Dont know about Chinese / Pak armies but muslims constitute a significant population of India and discrimination against recruiting them will topple governments. Its forces are also secular / voluntary - just like the US. From http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?230513:
The 1971 Indo-Pak war is assumed to be the apogee of achievement for our armed forces. But it also underscored another fact—the Indian army was headed by a Zoroastrian, Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw. Lt General J.S. Aurora, commander of the forces in the east, was a Sikh. His lieutenant and the chief architect of India’s victory, Captain J.R.F. Jacob, is a Jew. Some of the memorable flying men in war were Christians. Brigadier L.P. Sen, who described Nehru’s order to halt the counter-offensive against the 1947 Pak-sponsored tribal invasion in J&K as the most unpatriotic order he received in his army career, was a Christian. Apart from Hindus and Sikhs, a Muslim and Christian have also been recipients of the Param Vir Chakra.


True. Same for the Indian army (see above).
I cannot imagine how naive you are, dude, to actually quote outlook, that too on a 70s phenomenon, pre-congress party split. But actually, I take it back, you won't know outlook the way I do.

In a country so divisive, equal opportunities R us satires hit every Indian media outlet on the amount of discrimination muslims face in the army and the general society, even real estate.

Topple governments? The country is 82% hindu, at least. They will have a 3/3 majority in every government

Truly you must think it's an intriguing country of spices and curry, where people peacefully co-exist. Continue
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:54 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,961,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post


Why exactly is the US army enlisting muslims? I get the ACLU argument, but why?
Besides the fact we have freedom of religion in this country it's useful PR to have Muslims fighting for us so our wars don't look like "wars against Islam." If we forbade Muslims from being in the military our wars in Muslim nations could be much worse and moderate Muslims could be more likely to turn against us.

It's also not unprecedented. In WWII we had a troop of Japanese-American soldiers. During the Cold War I believe a few Trotskiyists were on our side as they deemed the Soviets degenerate. (Likely very few though as most Trotskiyists despised capitalism just as much) We allied or semi-allied with Tito as well.

Lastly most Muslims aren't Islamists or Al-Qaeda sympathizers.

And I wouldn't look at India or China as examples to follow. I always find it strange when people want us to follow the examples of dictatorships or nations with worse inter-religious violence than us because "they're tougher." If the way they're tougher works that's one thing, Britain and Spain's ways I think largely works, but if the way they're "tough" just leads to more bitter reprisals that's another thing. India I believe had a Muslim attack their capital building and China had riots over how they oppress the Uighurs. If our approach keeps most Muslims, or whatever group, from deeming the government their enemy than I think that's a good thing. American Muslims are comparatively moderate. Treated them like total enemies could cause things worse than Fort Hood.

All that said this particular Muslim had apparently been harassed and also said things in support of Muslims killing Americans. If this is true it does sound like someone may have dropped the ball. Sometimes though people just fall through the cracks. Like that kid in Virginia Tech. At one point he'd apparently been under psychiatric evaluation, but he was still able to buy a gun and such. (I'm not anti-gun per se, but I do think we should be able to make it harder for people with clear suicidal or homicidal tendencies to obtain guns)
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:58 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,991,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
I cannot imagine how naive you are, dude, to actually quote outlook, that too from the 70s, pre-congress party split. But actually, I take it back, you won't know outlook the way I do.

In a country so divisive, equal opportunities R us satires hit every Indian media outlet on the amount of discrimination muslims face in the army and the general society, even real estate.

Topple governments? The country is 82% hindu, at least. They will have a 3/3 majority in every government

Truly you must think it's an intriguing country of spices and curry, where people peacefully co-exist. Continue
And just because you lived in India gives you the right to BS around in your posts? It is a poor country with its problems but your main point of the army discriminating against muslims is bogus. Some sects like Sikhs etc are drawn more to the army than others and that impacts the composition. There is probably less discrimination in the Indain armed forces than any other Indain institution. This is also the case in the US armed forces - discrimination is extremely low / non-existant by any standards.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:59 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,961,646 times
Reputation: 6679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Until we rid the world of religion, hatred will continue unabated.
This is extremely naive, at best. People are clearly capable of hating each other without religion. Estonians murder each other in high numbers and they're some of the most irreligious people on the planet.

If the world were rid of religion we'd still hate each other over economic class, ethnicity, nationality, or over non-religious ideologies. Maybe an Anarcho-socialist would go blow-up the Club for Growth or something.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,556,091 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
And just because you lived in India gives you the right to BS around in your posts? It is a poor country with its problems but your main point of the army discriminating against muslims is bogus. Some sects like Sikhs etc are drawn more to the army than others and that impacts the composition. There is probably less discrimination in the Indain armed forces than any other Indain institution. This is also the case in the US armed forces - discrimination is extremely low / non-existant by any standards.
You say muslim discrimination is bogus and call in the Sikhs

Fact: They both can wear a turban and even port a beard. They are not the same.
Sikhs

This is getting lamer by the moment. The Sikhs bore the brunt of the 1983 Gandhi assassination and ever since have patched up, while the muslims have had constant rough-ups since 1947, with Kashmir/Pakistan, then the mosque demolitions of the nineties, and the selective muslim carnage engineered by Hindu nationalist parties, most notably the one in 2002.

The muslims have tons of reasons to rise up in revolt and need to be kept in constant check, particularly the army.

Even now, there is a huge fracas that muslims will not sing the Indian national song, because Islam will glorify Allah and Allah only. Since you're the India expert here, you do very well know of the Vande Mataram muslim row right now.

If you're not prepared to take information you don't like, even though they are true, don't read. I'm pretty sure your friends will make you curry and feed you cloak and dagger stories of Gandhi and his million marches. Fairly passes for a good bedtime.

It bums me when people carry coals to Newcastle and argue if coal can be black Please, the snake charmer knows his snakes.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:12 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,991,415 times
Reputation: 1199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
You say muslim discrimination is bogus and call in the Sikhs

This is getting lamer by the moment. The Sikhs bore the brunt of the 1983 Gandhi assassination and ever since have patched up, while the muslims have had constant rough-ups since 1947, with Kashmir/Pakistan, then the mosque demolitions of the nineties, and the selective muslim carnage engineered by Hindu nationalist parties, most notably the one in 2002.

The muslims have tons of reasons to rise up in revolt and need to be kept in constant check, particularly the army.

Even now, there is a huge fracas that muslims will not sing the Indian national song, because Islam will glorify Allah and Allah only. Since you're the India expert here, you do very well know of the Vande Mataram muslim row right now.

If you're not prepared to take information you don't like, even though they are true, don't read. I'm pretty sure your friends will make you curry and feed you cloak and dagger stories of Gandhi and his million marches. Fairly passes for a good bedtime.

It bums me when people carry coals to Newcastle and argue if coal can be black
You are right - it is getting lame and my bed time also. Again, it is an imperfect country but your interpretation / pontification is always carried to the extreme negative with some smart alec remarks about curry and some emoticons thrown in.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,020 posts, read 25,556,091 times
Reputation: 11309
Moderator cut: reference delete

Outlook India, sweet.

Why India Is Not A Secular State - South Asia Citizens Web

Discrimination in Army
Right after 1947, Kashmir’s predominantly Hindu army was absorbed in the national army; whereas Hyderabad’s largely Muslim army was disbanded, rendering nearly 20,000 jobless. The Indian army’s infantry regiments are still based on religion (Sikh regiments), or ethnicity (Gorkha) or caste (Rajput) or region (Garhwal) in which members of other faiths, ethnicities, and regions are barred.
While a bearded Sikh may become chief of the army staff as did Gen. J.J. Singh, a Muslim may not sport beard in any of the armed forces. Only Jhatka is served in army messes and langers forcing Muslims to become vegetarian. A Hanuman temple greets visitors upon entering virtually every cantonment in the nation, hinting non-Hindus that they don’t belong there. In their public addresses to the soldiers and officers, at least two army chiefs-Generals B.C. Joshi and Shankar Roy Chowdhury-have used references to Hindu scriptures to the exclusion of the Quran and the Bible.


But you also find the wishful thinking heads.


An Indian Muslim's Blog: News, Daily Articles, Views on Muslims & Urdu poetry webs: Indian Army's Muslim headcount: 3% or just 29,000


29K in a million strong army is true bogus indeed. I bet CNN-IBN does not have to lie.

Snubbed?

That's just 3 amongst 1000s. Tony's a googleton tonight. At least, I formally and officially learned evolution in school, I'm not uneducated and google-addicted.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-05-2009 at 08:54 PM.. Reason: not allowed to make those type of references about Google
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