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Old 11-06-2009, 02:39 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,584,964 times
Reputation: 4979

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First off, I would like to express my sadness at this tragedy. I am doubly saddened by the fact that this massacre was perpetrated by a Muslim, because at this time, Muslims in America are already looked at by many with mistrust, fear, and hatred. How absolutely horrible and heartbreaking that soldiers preparing to be deployed ended up being gunned down by one of their own, in a supposed secure location.

I would like to point out something a connection that I have heard not one person make, which is that this is, among whatever else, a situation of work place violence. I just checked CNN to find out what the latest is on this situation and found that apparently there has been another shooting in Florida somewhere, by a disgruntled employee. I had heard nothing of this, and apparently several people were killed there as well. "Going Postal" is not a phrase that just materialized. Shootings at the workplace unfortunately have become far too common, the same as shootings at schools.

I am not saying that this is only a case of workplace violence, but to imply in any way that this man did this horrible act because he is Muslim is just not fair and premature to say the least.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
Jazz, I'm very much an advocate of equal rights and equal treatment in society and the like. You cannot run this world with equality to all, there's simply too many parameters to lose and some of them are costly and vital

I'm simply of the school of thought which looks into whatever it takes to avoid this, even if it takes discrimination.

While other people indulge in violence too, 90% of the world's civilian bombings (who will walk into restaurants, train stations and the like, with the sole intention of blowing up people whose sin is carrying on their daily lives), suicide attacks and car bombings, they come from Islamic radicals.

If this statistic does not alert people to being more proactive, then they are setting themselves up for the loss of innocent lives.
You are an advocate of equal rights? Yet " you can't run this world with equality to all" and you would consider "anything it would take to avoid this including discrimination"

So, if a particular neighborhood experiences violent crimes perpetrated by 95% hispanic people, then that would justify discriminating against them and racially profiling them?

Or if 90% of white collar crime is committed by white men, it would be worthwhile to profile them? (I am just throwing these figures out there for the sake of argument).

Even if 100% of suicide bombings were committed by Muslims, what do you suggest is to be done about it with "profiling" and "discrimination"? Perhaps only .0000000001% of the Muslim population is committing these crimes. So what of the absolute majority of the innocent Muslims? No problem, they should just endure discrimination because of the few amongst them that are fundamentalist and use any means to get their political agendas accomplished?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniMae1 View Post
The big difference is that currently there are no Christians sects around indoctrinating people into killing others.
Currently. Ok, so we'll touch back to this comment if the coin is for some reason reversed, in the future, and we'll forget about any incidents in the past.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:40 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,584,964 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Troubling protrait emerges of Army psychiatrist suspected in rampage at Fort Hood, Texas - 11/5/2009 9:31:32 PM | Newser
He listed his nationality as "Palastinian" says the article, though he was born in the USA of Islamic parents from "Palestine"!
That tells it all!
That tells nothing. From what I read, he was filling out a form at the mosque which was a program to help individuals find spouses. I am sure that when asked his nationality, if he did in fact indicate that his nationality was Palestinian, it was for informative purposes to the prospective spouse. At a mosque, you can find people from many different countries, so what your ethnic background is would be pertinent information. (They are not going to suggest setting up a Palestinian American with a woman from Sudan who doesn't speak English or Arabic, for instance)

Besides, haven't you ever been asked "What nationality are you?" Every time I have been asked this question, the person asking really is asking what my ethnic background is, or where my distant relatives come from. I tell them I'm French Canadian, Irish, English and Scottish and a wee bit of Native American. Am I a national of any of those places? NO. My forefathers came to America from 50-200 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
I'm not trying to rid the world of all hatred, just the 80 - 90% born in the different religions of the world. Nothing on the planet has done such a great job of organizing hatred as has organized religion.
That is confusing, you would like to get rid of 80-90% of the world yet religion is the cause of hatred? Maybe I am picking on your wording.


That person, whether or not it really is the gunman, was commenting on whether or not suicide bombers would be technically considered having committed "suicide", which is not permissible in Islam. He links some sort of article or essay that discusses several imams who believe that a suicide bomber has in fact committed suicide. He comments that "Scholars......suicide bombers whose intention, by sacrificing their lives, is to help save Muslims by killing enemy soldiers. If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers because they were caught off guard that would be considered a strategic victory." He does not remark on suicide bombers that target civilians, whether or not he supports suicide bombers, does not say that he wanted to be a suicide bomber, etc. etc. etc. Frankly, this person does not even express an opinion of whether he considers that suicide bombers are actually committing suicide.
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
2,345 posts, read 3,908,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Yes he did, and it has nothing to do with his being a psychiatrist. When the investigation is carried out we will find out.

Irony. It's the irony of the situation! Geez.
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Old 11-06-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,584,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I've noticed that the numerous Muslim forum members have been silent on this tragedy....I would really like to hear their thoughts on this.
Our apologies, sanspeur, but frankly, speaking for myself, I hadn't been on yet, not to mention that it really takes a lot of time and energy participating in these discussions, especially with the opening comment of the OP. Give me a break. You are not going to find Muslims running to respond to a post like that. If I spent my time always responding to things in the Religion Forum I would really not have any time to enjoy my time on City Data. Not to mention I do not have unlimited amounts of patience for ignorance, hatred, bias, stupid comments, blanket statements, and even worse that I encounter in many of the threads that have to do with Islam (and this would be in the threads about all the religions, btw)


Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
First off, I think this thread is a little premature.

My first and foremost conclusion is that we simply don't know for what reasons he did what he did.

Second of all, I would like to make some other points. If the guy was in fact a Muslim (which is probably one of the more accurate conjectures in the news) does his religious belief take the sole brunt of the responsibility for his actions? For me, the answer is an emphatic "NO," albeit with a few caveats. Because religious belief is so sacred and protected, it becomes infinitely easier for people to project their mental illnesses or delusions (even if the person could be classified as 'sane') onto their religious beliefs.

In other words, there stands a pretty good chance in my mind that any guy who walks into a building and shoots twelve or thirteen people while wounding dozens others has some mental issues. These mental issues, I should note, are not solely in the realm of people of different faiths and beliefs. As human beings, we are all prone to undergoing traumatic bouts of stress, mental illness and downright delusional activity. We are not separated in our sanity by belief and non-belief. However, it seems to be a recurrent theme that religion allows for insanity to perpetuate and spread more easily because of the very nature of its intangibility and un-provability.

But, when combining irrational religious beliefs with insanity (albeit temporary or permanent insanity) one should quickly seek shelter and run as fast as one can for cover because things are about to get nasty.
I agree with much of your post. Fundamentalists of any religion paired with insanity is frequently a recipe for disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post


Why exactly is the US army enlisting muslims? I get the ACLU argument, but why?

Time to take a leaf out of Indian, Chinese and Pakistani armies. Profiling can work sometimes.
Hm. Let's see. What percentage of Americans even speak a foreign language? How many Americans speak Arabic? Perhaps the government sees some sort of benefit to allowing Muslims, especially those who actually speak the Arabic language, to enlist and serve so that maybe they can help facilitate communication in these foreign countries we keep going to war with. Or perhaps they feel that a Muslim might be be an asset when dealing with locals in Muslim countries with whom we are at war.

The Army can't really be a revolving door, taking in soldiers in and out depending on who we are at war with or which countries have certain conflicts with or countries we have suspicions of some sort of behavior or other. Otherwise, Cuban Americans, Russian Americans, Japanese Americans, German American, Iraqi Americans, Saudi Americans, Panamanian Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Chinese Americans, Nicaraguan Americans, Colombian Americans, etc. etc. etc. would be at one time allowed in the military, then OUT as soon as some sort of situation flared up somewhere........


We will see what this situation is all about in the coming days, weeks, months, etc. I am inclined to believe that the man was psychologically unstable. But without evidence we don't know what the full story is.

The fact of the matter is that many of our troops are suffering psychologically from the effects of war and combat. I can attest to that because my own brother served in Iraq. He, his wife and his children suffer on a daily basis because of what he went through over there and the lasting effects of his experiences on him. It makes me sad because he is not the person he was and he will not be the person he would have been if he never went to Iraq. At the same time I know someone that served with him who appears unscathed by his time spent there (though his wife asserts otherwise). Not to mention the fact that our troops cannot even get out of the Armed Forces when their time of service is up. They are just stuck.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:00 PM
 
108 posts, read 220,223 times
Reputation: 25
This guy is nothing more then a terrorist...lets call a spade a spade....and our government to avoid panic will play it down and make excuses........he infiltrated our army...how embarressing for our government.........
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:24 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 23,015,117 times
Reputation: 6692
Satire alert

I think the issue should be he's a psychiatrist. This just proves that psychiatry really is the industry of death and people should be wary of it. (This message was brought to you by the Church of Scientology)

End joke

Seriously though I was a little surprised his being a psychiatrist wasn't more of an issue. I mean I had this vision of a soldier going "I can't believe it, I was one of his patients!" What would that be like?
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:35 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,476,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Satire alert

I think the issue should be he's a psychiatrist. This just proves that psychiatry really is the industry of death and people should be wary of it. (This message was brought to you by the Church of Scientology)

End joke

Seriously though I was a little surprised his being a psychiatrist wasn't more of an issue. I mean I had this vision of a soldier going "I can't believe it, I was one of his patients!" What would that be like?
He messed with their minds, it is reported.
Quote:
Report: Suspect pushed Islam on patients
Co-worker says Nidal Hasan was disciplined for proselytizing
Posted: November 06, 2009
10:16 am Eastern

2009 WorldNetDaily
The Muslim Army psychiatrist who allegedly opened fire on fellow soldiers at Fort Hood and killed 13 aggressively pushed Islam on his patients to the point he was disciplined over the issue, according to a report today. ...
...
...
A participant in a forum at JihadWatch charged the "Pentagon, the American military, the Army, those who run Fort Hood, are guilty, in their refusal to recognize the effect of Islam on the minds of men, in their willful ignorance of what is contained in Quran, Hadith, and Sira."
The contributor said everyone in authority "in the Western world who presumes to protect and defend 'the people,' has a duty to learn about Islam. … Nothing but immediate, and detailed knowledge, of the texts and the tenets and the attitudes and the atmospherics of Islam, will do."

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 11-06-2009 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 11-07-2009, 09:29 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,584,964 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
He messed with their minds, it is reported.
"A participant in a forum at JihadWatch charged the"
A participant.....

In a forum......


at Jihad Watch.....

Where did you find this? I'd like to read it.....
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:47 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,433,685 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroGuy View Post
Persons of Japanese descent were not the only ones interned.

German American Internee Coalition

Yes I know and I should have added it in with the Japanese internments. Thanks for bringing it up!
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Old 11-10-2009, 02:01 PM
 
4,529 posts, read 4,871,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroGuy View Post
Persons of Japanese descent were not the only ones interned.

German American Internee Coalition
Not to mention the Communists, or merely atheists, or those even merely suspected of being Communists, who were exiled in the 1950's.
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