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Old 11-12-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
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The bible has just as much killing in it as the Qur'an does.
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Old 11-12-2009, 05:16 PM
 
Location: San José, CA
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I know tons of harmless Muslims. I used to go to Arabic school and met plenty. It's completely analogous with Christians. The ignorant, hard-headed, extremist Christians are the loudest and get their message heard, and they give a bad name to all of the moderate, NORMAL human beings who happen to also be Christians. As well, just as in Islam, many of those moderate normal human beings don't speak out against their psychotic breathren.

Do I trust Islam? I don't even trust Christianity. So, no, I don't 'trust' any religion for they only have their own priorities in mind.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,550,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddy4LyF View Post
Do I trust Islam? I don't even trust Christianity. So, no, I don't 'trust' any religion for they only have their own priorities in mind.
Trusting a religion and trusting its adherents are two completely different things. I don't have anything against any religion (except when it tries to convert me). But some of the followers of some of those religions...I don't believe I trust them at all.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:52 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,978,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
It's obvious that we can't trust the extremists in Islam.
Or christian extremists, the American Taliban such as;
George Bush Sr. who said
Quote:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Or the bad seed he spawned, Jr. who said;
Quote:
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
and
Quote:
"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
Or the Secretary of the Interior under Regan, James Watt;
Quote:
"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
The force behind the McCarthy witchhunts, John McCarthy who said;
Quote:
"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."
and Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin who said;
Quote:
“George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States, he was appointed by God.”
Ronald Regan who said;
Quote:
"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ."
William Rehnquist -Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court said;
Quote:
"The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."
It is religion that we cannot trust
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
The bible has just as much killing in it as the Qur'an does.
But it's how the current modern followers of a religion act out now which is a concern to us, no?
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:58 PM
 
Location: New York City
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As I've pointed out elsewhere, a religion that started out with a man claiming to hear voices. Today billions follow what this man claimed he heard being told to him. Sad thing is, I'm sure the majority never take this into consideration so reason might not be their strong point.
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Old 11-13-2009, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,379,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
As I've pointed out elsewhere, a religion that started out with a man claiming to hear voices. Today billions follow what this man claimed he heard being told to him. Sad thing is, I'm sure the majority never take this into consideration so reason might not be their strong point.
After reading many of the fundamentalist Christian posts here on C-D, I'd have to agree, IIDM. But I also observe that the more fanatical Muslims are seemingly less in control of their emotional reactions, and also perhaps quicker to go for their guns. Perhaps the senior Christian "elders" are just more cold and calculating. Those Qu'Ran passages urging Muslims to The Jihad are also a bit unnerving, don't you think?

I don't see Benny Hinn overtly drawing his sword. He has a less straightforward approach to subjugation of course; sleight of hand and the national media.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:38 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 21,077,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
But it's how the current modern followers of a religion act out now which is a concern to us, no?
Current followers have used it for the IRA bombings, and the abortion clinic bombings in the United States. The holocaust museum shooter was a strict Christian to.

The point is, crazy people will use whatever excuse to kill people.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:44 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,030,756 times
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Which version of Islam ? There are as many as there are of Christianity .... Sacred scriptures all over the world are still being fought over by various groups all with their own little political and social agenda.

Islam is not the enemy, only those who somehow interpret it in so many different ways. Same with the Bible which read in a certain way implies that slavery and rape is still OK in certain circumstances.

Every single Muslim I know is moderate. I have travelled extensively across the Middle East and the Arab world and on balance have noticed a lot less violent , selfish and thoughtless behaviour.

My main problem would lie with the position of women and this seem to stem more from a socio-cultural construct than a religious one.

The Qur'han used to be a religion of Scholars .

I also think one of the main issue if of socio-economic power. Let us not forget that our own record in the West for tolerance towards Homosexuals, other Races, and Women hardly bears scrutiny until very recently ( even now reading some posters I feel we have a long way to go). Not simply because of Religion but because of our Social so called "moral" boundaries.

What has helped us in the West towards social progress and towards a more equal society has not just been an evolution towards a more secular society but I strongly feel economic improvements.

Freedom, equality and fraternity are all wonderful concepts but when you are still having to struggle daily for your daily bread and to keep your kids alive it can seem a great luxury .

I suspect if we truly want all those "backward" Nations which cause us so many sleepless nights , the way to it is not bombing their villages and invading their countries or smugly telling them they live in the Dark Ages but to instead improve their economic situation .


Wealth brings stability. So does Education for all and the prospects of a better life.

We gave the vote to Black people in the 60s, Slavery in the West disappeared only almost within living memory, as a man you used to be able to rape your wife with impunity until fairly recently , and a woman could be commited simply for failing to produce an heir. All this in our wonderful civilised West.

Aboriginals in Australia were until the 60s still considered "Flora". Not even Fauna. The monsters who thought these policies relevent were very nicely heeled British/Australian administrators who are still alive and some them still quite young.

I am not afraid of Islam. I am afraid of ill educated, poverty ridden people who are being manipulated by others with a socio-political agenda of their own.

Islam itself as dictated by the Qur'han seem no more dangerous per se than the Bible. How people interpret certain passages is what counts.

I know quite a few Islamic Scholars ( we have an excellent centre for Islamic Studies in Oxford) as well as intelligent, educated Muslims and ALL are moderate people, as are most Christians. A few loonies are giving the whole religion a bad name.

To be honest in my opinion we would do a lot better combatting fundamentalism with money and facilities than with bombs. Some problems with have created with our own greed, imperialistic attitudes to Natural resources and problems like Palestine... Let's not even begin that subject. Problems created by us the wonderful West.

Political stability tend to come with wealth. Our own foreign policies have exacerbated a lot of the issues and none of us want to take responsibility. Finger pointing is not going to be terribly helpful .


Iran for example in the 80s was doing quite nicely and moving in the right direction. All this has been undone in simply 2 decades.

I don't see Islam as the enemy, I see poverty, ignorance, and Western foreign policies which lead to politicaly and socially destructive events as the enemy.

Fanaticism tends to spring from despair, and extreme anger as well as a sense of not belonging. How we deal with that will be the difference between progress or decay...

The very vast majority of Muslims are people just like us who only want to live in Peace with those they love, who want to feed their kids and wish for a better life. They love, they laugh, they grieve. People whose only crime is not to be like us in every way.

Those who do get indoctrinated into extremist behaviour seem to do so out of a real sense of desperation, hatred and despair, being whipped up into a frenzy against those they are told are responsible for all their ills.

Lest we forget that our own record on human rights for example has not always been the very best there could be.... and still isn't.
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:11 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,030,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
After reading many of the fundamentalist Christian posts here on C-D, I'd have to agree, IIDM. But I also observe that the more fanatical Muslims are seemingly less in control of their emotional reactions, and also perhaps quicker to go for their guns. Perhaps the senior Christian "elders" are just more cold and calculating. Those Qu'Ran passages urging Muslims to The Jihad are also a bit unnerving, don't you think?

I don't see Benny Hinn overtly drawing his sword. He has a less straightforward approach to subjugation of course; sleight of hand and the national media.
Ideas are as damaging as bombs. The result might be less "obvious" for a while and take longer but the end result is exactly the same. Hatred, bigotry and intolerance kill people and destroy lives. Ideas is what we should be afraid of.

Anti-Homosexual feelings for example leads to social ostracisation, bullying, discrimination ( some of it physical as well as verbal and psychological) and in some cases suicide or self harm.

Anti-Abortion movements lead to unwanted births, and child abuse/neglect which will have a deeply felt effect on many children , who will in turn grow up into inadequate adults some of which will turn their anger and sense of inadequacy into violence, murder, rape etc...

Thoughts turn into action , and actions all have consequences. One does not have to strap a bomb to their chest in a busy market place to destroy countless lives.

Violence come in many shapes and forms all of them repugnant and I feel we ought to take a hateful ideology like some so called Christians espouse as harmful as the violence we observe on the News in the Middle East.

All are destructive to life, freedom , liberty and the pursuit of happiness and in many cases mental and psychological violence will turn into maiming and blood letting as well.

We must fight ideas as well as bombers. In fact I do not believe we can fight bombers with bombs . Nobody can fight an idea with a bomb. In fact the more we bomb the stronger and more extremist ,more ingrained the idea becomes...

One must go back to the drawing board and fight ideas with ideas.

Someone I dearly loved was killed in the 1983 bombing in Beyrouth by a young suicide bomber so I am not saying this glibly. I felt no hatred towards that person , all I could feel beside my terrible grief, pain and anger was a great sadness.

The sadness that someone so young with so much potential had chosen to take that route. I pondered for years trying to understand what could lead to such despair and hatred for humanity. And to this day though I still do not truly understand I know that whatever caused this terrible atrocity could not have been stopped because if not her then someone else , even somewhere else perhaps would have committed the same deed for similar reasons.

Our only hope is to try and understand and then act by trying to end whatever reasons were responsible for such an act of utter violence and senseless murder.

An idea in someone's head will never be defeated with a gun. That much I learnt. Especially when death means nothing to some people who are willing to die and be maimed for their "cause".

In the West we live in fear for our physical bodies on a daily basis and physical violence, illness and death are the worst we can imagine. How can we fight people who feel no such fears ? There has to be a better solution.

Until we realise that I firmly believe we will all be mired in endless wars against an invisible foe. It is like fighting air.
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