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Old 11-21-2009, 12:50 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,916,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb in VA View Post
Well I happen to agree with Pat Robertson on this. Islam *is* more than just a religion, it is a political system. Anyone ever heard of Sharia law?

And I also agree that Islam is bent on world domination. If you're not aware of this, well you must have your head in the sand.

This is a guy named Geert Wilders. He's a Dutch politician and is an expert on the Islamic faith and on the Islamisation of Europe. What makes you think the same thing can't or won't happen here??

http://www.youtube.com/v/NQOCcx5V9RI&hl=en

Oh and Mr. Wilders happens to be an atheist so you can't say that he is looking at this issue with any kind of religious prejudice, just an fyi.
I sure do not deny any of this as the proof can be seen in a recent post I made. http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...religious.html. I posted it because I am sure he would not mind seeing Christianity do the same thing or he is forgetting the not too distant past about his own religion.
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:59 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,993,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb in VA View Post
Well I happen to agree with Pat Robertson on this. Islam *is* more than just a religion, it is a political system. Anyone ever heard of Sharia law?
And what about all the christians that are doing their best to have their christian agenda interwoven into our laws? And insisting that their delusional beliefs be taught (by law) to students in this country, as a substitute for fact and science.

To teach that the earth is 6000 years old, and was created by some invisible deity is shear lunacy.

I guess christers need to be real careful when throwing stones at Islam, as they also live in a glass house.
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,287,081 times
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I don't think it's much of a surprise to hear something hypocritical come out of the mouth of such a fatuous, lying blowhard. If he wanted to make the case that Islam has worked itself into governments to a much higher degree than Christianity, than I would be compelled to agree with him. The strict Wahhabism of places like Saudi Arabia are the result of nothing less than a blurred line between government and religion.

However, to say that it is a political movement and not a religion is absolutely absurd. The only people who could fail to distinguish between the two are people like Pat Robertson who feel the government should be run as an entirely religious operation.

The purpose of government serves an entirely different purpose than the purpose of religion. At least, if you look at any great political thinker and philosopher (Locke, More, Jefferson, Marx, etc...) you would find that government and religion are frequently talked about in a fashion that resembles a separation of these ideas in so much as what purpose they serve. For Locke and Jefferson, the purpose of government was to protect life, liberty and estates (for Locke) or the pursuit of happiness (for Jefferson).

It's absolutely evident that Islam has invaded the governments of the Middle East as well as a few other countries around the world. These pressures have convinced the governments of said countries to adopt principles and codes in accordance with Islamic law. This does not mean that Islam is a political movement but merely that it has infested and infected a separate entity with its own puritanical aspirations.

It's just as evident that Christianity has had some influence on the American government. This does not mean that Christianity is a political movement either. It is a religion that tries to persuade government and politics in its favor in many of the same fashions of Islam.

Make no mistake, this is not a topic of whether government and religion should be separated but whether the purposes of government and religion are the same. There are only a handful of successful governments that have completely merged the two - one of them is North Korea.

Pat Robertson is an idiot. Plain and simple.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:06 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,916,819 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I don't think it's much of a surprise to hear something hypocritical come out of the mouth of such a fatuous, lying blowhard. If he wanted to make the case that Islam has worked itself into governments to a much higher degree than Christianity, than I would be compelled to agree with him. The strict Wahhabism of places like Saudi Arabia are the result of nothing less than a blurred line between government and religion.

However, to say that it is a political movement and not a religion is absolutely absurd. The only people who could fail to distinguish between the two are people like Pat Robertson who feel the government should be run as an entirely religious operation.

The purpose of government serves an entirely different purpose than the purpose of religion. At least, if you look at any great political thinker and philosopher (Locke, More, Jefferson, Marx, etc...) you would find that government and religion are frequently talked about in a fashion that resembles a separation of these ideas in so much as what purpose they serve. For Locke and Jefferson, the purpose of government was to protect life, liberty and estates (for Locke) or the pursuit of happiness (for Jefferson).

It's absolutely evident that Islam has invaded the governments of the Middle East as well as a few other countries around the world. These pressures have convinced the governments of said countries to adopt principles and codes in accordance with Islamic law. This does not mean that Islam is a political movement but merely that it has infested and infected a separate entity with its own puritanical aspirations.

It's just as evident that Christianity has had some influence on the American government. This does not mean that Christianity is a political movement either. It is a religion that tries to persuade government and politics in its favor in many of the same fashions of Islam.

Make no mistake, this is not a topic of whether government and religion should be separated but whether the purposes of government and religion are the same. There are only a handful of successful governments that have completely merged the two - one of them is North Korea.

Pat Robertson is an idiot. Plain and simple.

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Old 11-21-2009, 03:22 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,993,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
However, to say that it is a political movement and not a religion is absolutely absurd. The only people who could fail to distinguish between the two are people like Pat Robertson who feel the government should be run as an entirely religious operation.
Or Bush Jr. who wanted to include his religious bigotry and hatred into the Constitution, thus making discrimination based on religions beliefs part of the foundation of our country.

Or Bush Sr. who didn't believed that Atheists even deserved to be citizens.

Or Watt, Sec of Interior under Regan who didn't give a tinkers about protecting the environment because Geezus was coming soon.

No it is not absurd, it is a real and present danger to the freedoms this country was founded on.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,287,081 times
Reputation: 4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Or Bush Jr. who wanted to include his religious bigotry and hatred into the Constitution, thus making discrimination based on religions beliefs part of the foundation of our country.

Or Bush Sr. who didn't believed that Atheists even deserved to be citizens.

Or Watt, Sec of Interior under Regan who didn't give a tinkers about protecting the environment because Geezus was coming soon.

No it is not absurd, it is a real and present danger to the freedoms this country was founded on.


You're falling for the same garbage that Pat Robertson is spewing out of his twisted, sepulchral mouth. I don't deny that there are Christian politicians who try to bring their agendas into the referendum. In fact, I alluded to this in the post you quoted. What I was saying is that a religion is not a political ideology. The purposes of government and the purposes of religion have two independent objectives. Indeed, there are people of religious faith (as history has shown time and again) that have tried to bring their religious ideas into politics in order to blur the line between the two.

Pat Robertson advocates the same sort of theocracy that many Middle-Eastern governments have in place. The only difference, of course, is a Christian theocracy as opposed to an Islamic one.

The driving factor behind a theocratic government is the religious belief itself. All laws are made based upon the religious belief described therein. Even so, it's plainly evident to see that Christianity (or Islam) is first and foremost a religion - not a form of government.

As I mentioned earlier, political philosophers such as More, Locke, Jefferson, etc... explained in much greater detail what the purpose of government is. Read Locke's Second Treatise of Government for his explanation of why we enable government in our lives. Whatever the government strives to achieve is often marred by religion.

If we fall for what Pat Robertson is saying, we allow ourselves to give credit to any religion as being a viable alternative to government and thereby open the door to theocratic rule - just as he would like.

As I said before, even in the case of the world of Islam, they still have governmental rule albeit heavily influenced by Islam. Are you following yet? It is absolutely imperative to distinguish between a political movement and a religious movement.

But, as I also said before... North Korea is the only country that I know of in this day and age to have effectively blurred the lines between religion and government. Kim Il Song (who died in the 1990's) is still the head of the country. He is referred to as the 'Great Leader.' His son, Kim Jong Il (known as the 'Dear Leader') is currently the "second in command." If there is a purely religious, theocratic state in this world it is North Korea. Both leaders have become deified to such an extent that as far as the North Korean people are concerned, the "Leaders" are responsible for everything and anything that goes on in their country. That is the very essence of what happens when one cannot distinguish between religious ideology and political ideology.
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