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Old 12-04-2009, 04:16 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,243 times
Reputation: 161

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Unfortunately that's half the problem people pick up a book and read it without wanting to learn about what its saying. Imams who have studied and have scholarship who understand Islam are a good source and the Imams I know in my area, and I know 2 would be a good source as they know their religion. They are moderate Muslims who work with the local community in interfaith.

There is more to the Quran and the Bible, there is a history of when it was written, the group of people it was speaking to, and why. Much that is in the Quran answers question of the early Muslims. It speaks to the problems they had. It needs to be understood in the context of what it was written for.

Misunderstandings come from just picking it up and reading it without understanding what it means.
hi jazzymom

you completely right in what you said , but i think that you just misunderstood what he tried to say

although the openion of imams are very good source for muslims ( and i don't think that samir wanna to ignore them becuae he can read quran and understand it by himself without imams ) , but they need to support thier openions with quran verses and saying of the prophet

so that if the imams differed in some issues , hence we need to analyze every openion and compare it with reference of quran itself

so if one imam for example said that apostasy in islam must to be killed , and others said that there's no punishment against them , and others said that the puishment will be death under specefic condition
in this mattar we have to read the quran and sunnah and we have to hear the arguments of every openion , and with the comparison of all that with quran we can decide by our own thoughts which one of them is more convincing

i think that that's exactly his point . he will not trust the imam when he saying that apostate must to be killed while he can't reference his view from quran , but in contrary he find the opposite in the quran

i just trying to clarify his point

peace
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:01 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,428,280 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
hi jazzymom

you completely right in what you said , but i think that you just misunderstood what he tried to say

although the openion of imams are very good source for muslims ( and i don't think that samir wanna to ignore them becuae he can read quran and understand it by himself without imams ) , but they need to support thier openions with quran verses and saying of the prophet

so that if the imams differed in some issues , hence we need to analyze every openion and compare it with reference of quran itself

so if one imam for example said that apostasy in islam must to be killed , and others said that there's no punishment against them , and others said that the puishment will be death under specefic condition
in this mattar we have to read the quran and sunnah and we have to hear the arguments of every openion , and with the comparison of all that with quran we can decide by our own thoughts which one of them is more convincing

i think that that's exactly his point . he will not trust the imam when he saying that apostate must to be killed while he can't reference his view from quran , but in contrary he find the opposite in the quran

i just trying to clarify his point

peace

So if an imam says you may not kill an apostate but the quran "in someones view does" its ok to kill???

There are many things that the quran says but in this day and age you don't do it. You ought not be stoning anyone period..... If an imam says you are not to hate Jews, then will you go to those places in the quran where Jews are called awful names and you are told to kill them, then do you go out and kill Jews?

I would take a learned Imam's word because they are learned men. Now if an Imam told me to go kill I would not because the Quran says that to kill one innocent person is to kill all of humanity, and to save one person is to save all humanity.

The quran is a book with words an Imam can put the correct meaning to those words. The problem is that there are to many Imams putting incorrect meanings to quranic passages and thats why we have terrorism because many Imams in the world expouse the hateful parts of the Quran without balance.

Muslims need to have some common sense and balance. Ayats can be taken out of context.

Even in Christianity there are pastors who ought not to be followed, and there are those who have true scholarship. But to read the bible and not know its historical context is dangerous.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:50 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,243 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
So if an imam says you may not kill an apostate but the quran "in someones view does" its ok to kill???
logically , yes
we giv the words of quran to be superior over any imams . actually we give the words of quran more credit that hadeeth ( saying of our prophet (pbuh) himself )


Quote:
There are many things that the quran says but in this day and age you don't do it. You ought not be stoning anyone period.....
things as what for example ?


Quote:
If an imam says you are not to hate Jews, then will you go to those places in the quran where Jews are called awful names and you are told to kill them, then do you go out and kill Jews?
yes , i will
it's very simple eqaution , anything contradicts the quran isn't islamic .

but the confusion will be in the intesnsions of imam and the true knowlege of quran
what the imam means by saying not to hate jews , and what these verses from quran meant when it talked about jews , may be the two saying not contradicts each other in the first place , may be there's just misunderstanding for one of them

is it possible , what do you think ?

Quote:

I would take a learned Imam's word because they are learned men. Now if an Imam told me to go kill I would not because the Quran says that to kill one innocent person is to kill all of humanity, and to save one person is to save all humanity.
me too


Quote:
The quran is a book with words an Imam can put the correct meaning to those words. The problem is that there are to many Imams putting incorrect meanings to quranic passages and thats why we have terrorism because many Imams in the world expouse the hateful parts of the Quran without balance.
we now in front of another problem . what do you think the imam means ?
which person deserve that title
which imam we have to get the advice from ?

for your information , not anyone read quran and preach islam considered to be imam for muslims

even if you considered all the terrorist to be imams , they will not exceed 2% of imams in the world
do you suggest that we have to obey 2% and disobey 98% of them



Quote:
Muslims need to have some common sense and balance. Ayats can be taken out of context.
they do
do you want proofs ?
give me islamic source preaches the terrorism


Quote:
Even in Christianity there are pastors who ought not to be followed, and there are those who have true scholarship. But to read the bible and not know its historical context is dangerous.

you are right
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:28 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,428,280 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
logically , yes
we giv the words of quran to be superior over any imams . actually we give the words of quran more credit that hadeeth ( saying of our prophet (pbuh) himself )



things as what for example ?



yes , i will
it's very simple eqaution , anything contradicts the quran isn't Islamic . Many terrorists are using Quranic ayats to back up there call for Jihad and I am not talking about the Jihad of struggle in a peaceful way, but the Jihad of fighting your enemies. Fighting the west, the non-believers, and the Jews.

but the confusion will be in the intesnsions of imam and the true knowlege of quran
what the imam means by saying not to hate jews , and what these verses from quran meant when it talked about jews , may be the two saying not contradicts each other in the first place , may be there's just misunderstanding for one of them

is it possible , what do you think ?


me too



we now in front of another problem . what do you think the imam means ?
which person deserve that title
which imam we have to get the advice from ?

for your information , not anyone read quran and preach islam considered to be imam for muslims

even if you considered all the terrorist to be imams , they will not exceed 2% of imams in the world
do you suggest that we have to obey 2% and disobey 98% of them




they do
do you want proofs ?
give me islamic source preaches the terrorism




you are right

I think there are hate filled sayings in the quran that lead many Muslims to hate Jews. Imans spread the hate and Muslims consider all Jews their enemies. As to Jews if you are saying what is written in the quran takes priority over what an Imam says, it clearly says to Kill them where ever you find them and many Muslims take that to heart. There have been muslims posting those particular ayats here and other ayats that are really anti-semitic. Heck Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map and that is coming right from the head Mullah. As far as they are concerned Jews and Zionists are one and the same... And I have no doubt if they get a nuclear capability they will do just that and it won't matter because if they think they are going to paradise who is to stop them? Even though they will kill thousands of Muslims right along with the Jews in Israel. At that point there will cease to be a middle east as we know it.

I understand not all Imams are real Imams but like Christianity people tend to follow blindly people who espouse to be men of God. I also am knowledgeable about Islam as I studied it for a couple of years.

Many quranic things are unacceptable in this day and age for example Stoning women, but its carried out in Muslim countries like Iran. Stoning of women for adultery is in the bible too, but you don't see them being stoned in majority Christian countries.

In this day and age even 2% of imams can cause a whole lot of damage because they have a whole internet to spread their hate filled speech. When you have a lot of people who are really not educated in their religion then that 2% is dangerous.

The Imam in the mosque I know has an education in Islam and preaches moderation.
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:20 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,243 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I think there are hate filled sayings in the quran that lead many Muslims to hate Jews.

Imans spread the hate and Muslims consider all Jews their enemies. As to Jews if you are saying what is written in the quran takes priority over what an Imam says, it clearly says to Kill them where ever you find them and many Muslims take that to heart. There have been muslims posting those particular ayats here and other ayats that are really anti-semitic.
i still keep my words , you can give me the verse then i can give you my interpretation for it , and i can give you the interpretation of imams to it either

as a brief start , the verse you are refering to not talking about jews
but anyway , if you interest to hear my respond , then give me the verses first to read it in its context , and if you have islamic sources which support your view then help me with it


Quote:
Heck Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map and that is coming right from the head Mullah. As far as they are concerned Jews and Zionists are one and the same... And I have no doubt if they get a nuclear capability they will do just that and it won't matter because if they think they are going to paradise who is to stop them? Even though they will kill thousands of Muslims right along with the Jews in Israel. At that point there will cease to be a middle east as we know it.
honestly , most of muslims wants to wipe israil off the map , but this isn't my subject . note that we hate their acts . we hate them because of thier occupation to our land not because they are jews nor because of some verses which talking about history of jews with thier prophets or with our prophet

and yes may be iran have no problem to kill muslims in phalastine either , as you know , iran are shi3a , and they don't like the sunni that much .


Quote:
Many quranic things are unacceptable in this day and age for example Stoning women, but its carried out in Muslim countries like Iran. Stoning of women for adultery is in the bible too, but you don't see them being stoned in majority Christian countries.
very good example

just give me this verse which talking about stoning of women , please

by the way in the majority muslims countries their is no stonning either


Quote:
In this day and age even 2% of imams can cause a whole lot of damage because they have a whole internet to spread their hate filled speech. When you have a lot of people who are really not educated in their religion then that 2% is dangerous.
offcourse they are dangerous , but is it fair to blame the entire relegion and entire community becuase 2% of them are dangerous ?

actually 2 % is very big number , it was just assupmtion that if we considered that all the terrorist are imams then they will not exceed 2% , but offcource the group of terrorist may have one imam for them ( only for them )


Quote:
The Imam in the mosque I know has an education in Islam and preaches moderation.
whole imams i listnning to , preach moderation too , in the fact the moderation is the true one which majority of muslims preach
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:32 PM
 
27 posts, read 34,006 times
Reputation: 20
there is nothing true about islam...
your storytale is like all the others.
Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl created the world.
all others were just men.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: south saudi
169 posts, read 315,149 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Most folks here tend to be respectful of others beliefs. It seems to be the Muslims and fundamentalist Christians who don't respect others right to their beliefs and keep proselytizing.

I for one don't tell folks their religion is wrong. Everyone has their way to God. Some have chosen no faith, its their choice. We find in life what we need including faith.

Muslims are not being attacked its the constant barrage of videos, pictures, ayats, the attack of Jews in sneaky little ways, unending cutting and pasting long lists.

If people want to learn about Islam this forum is not the place. They will go to a library, there are lots of ways to get information.

I don't care if you are Muslim, I do care about the constant barrage of information, which is often meaningless, and biased.


When a Muslim speaks about Islam and discusses some of the misunderstandings about its teachings ...Not considered a bias


We do not force anyone to convert to Islam when talking about Islam in the forums ....


When you go to the market you not forced to buy a commodity you do not want it


also ... perhaps the truth is completely opposite your understanding or concept


look ....When it is in any forum section of Religions ....This means that it includes all religions .........For that of the right of Muslim that talks about his/her religion ...

Why the post about islam it called fundamentalist then ?


To talk about Islam, not a declaration of enmity to other religions

The truth is probably not a bed of roses

jmoool
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:28 PM
 
Location: south saudi
169 posts, read 315,149 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I think there are hate filled sayings in the quran that lead many Muslims to hate Jews. Imans spread the hate and Muslims consider all Jews their enemies. As to Jews if you are saying what is written in the quran takes priority over what an Imam says, it clearly says to Kill them where ever you find them and many Muslims take that to heart. There have been muslims posting those particular ayats here and other ayats that are really anti-semitic. Heck Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map and that is coming right from the head Mullah. As far as they are concerned Jews and Zionists are one and the same... And I have no doubt if they get a nuclear capability they will do just that and it won't matter because if they think they are going to paradise who is to stop them? Even though they will kill thousands of Muslims right along with the Jews in Israel. At that point there will cease to be a middle east as we know it.

I understand not all Imams are real Imams but like Christianity people tend to follow blindly people who espouse to be men of God. I also am knowledgeable about Islam as I studied it for a couple of years.

Many quranic things are unacceptable in this day and age for example Stoning women, but its carried out in Muslim countries like Iran. Stoning of women for adultery is in the bible too, but you don't see them being stoned in majority Christian countries.

In this day and age even 2% of imams can cause a whole lot of damage because they have a whole internet to spread their hate filled speech. When you have a lot of people who are really not educated in their religion then that 2% is dangerous.

The Imam in the mosque I know has an education in Islam and preaches moderation.




How you object to the stoning is located in the Torah and the Gospel ?



Deuteronomy 22:23-24. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

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Old 12-06-2009, 05:46 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,428,280 times
Reputation: 807
[quote=jmooool;11913709]
How you object to the stoning is located in the Torah and the Gospel ?



Deuteronomy 22:23-24. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.


Yes its in there but people don't get stoned in the west. People only get stoned in Muslim nations. Like Iran, Afghanistan, and Somalia there may be others that I am not aware of.
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:00 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,428,280 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmooool View Post
When a Muslim speaks about Islam and discusses some of the misunderstandings about its teachings ...Not considered a bias



We do not force anyone to convert to Islam when talking about Islam in the forums ....


When you go to the market you not forced to buy a commodity you do not want it



also ... perhaps the truth is completely opposite your understanding or concept


look ....When it is in any forum section of Religions ....This means that it includes all religions .........For that of the right of Muslim that talks about his/her religion ...

Why the post about islam it called fundamentalist then ?


To talk about Islam, not a declaration of enmity to other religions

The truth is probably not a bed of roses



jmoool
All people who follow a religion are guilty of some bias.

No, you don't have discussions, you just fill the forum with endless ayats, u tube videos and pictures. When anyone tries to discuss anything with the Muslims on this forum they get told they are wrong, or misguided, or they just hate Muslims. There is no meaning ful dialogue. And yes you all do have a right to discuss but that is not what is happening.

I gave Christianity the fundamentalist label. Fundamentalist/evangelical Christians are the least respectful of Christians. fundamentalist Muslims are committing acts of terror, killing Muslims and non-Muslims.

Islam and Christianity are the least respectful when it comes to other religions because they think they have the truth and all others are lost and in need of saving.
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