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Old 01-11-2010, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 2,979,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post

So. What would happen when the next major terrorist attack on Western cities is followed by the total annihilation of a dozen or so Afghani villages, where the smirking terrorist's children and wife live?

You know; so that there's direct tangible and timely consequences for their inhumanity towards us, their abject hatred and their inalterable outlook on the evil West?

This sounds fair enough for the most part. But consider the people who live through this hypothetical retaliation. Now you have otherwise innocent people who are hurt, maybe a dead parent. How are they going to feel about us after that? Chances are that they are going to be bent about it for the rest of their life and go join the fight. Now there just the new enemy.How is that going to shake their negative outlook on the west?

That's the problem with it, it works for the meanwhile and might work great but it's really just swatting the mosquitos on the surface in the end. Every action has a reaction. If you raise your fist, someone else will too. You hit someone with it, they will too. Fighting is no way to solve a problem it just causes pain.

If someone does something that is wrong, it doesn't make you right to do the same exact thing to them.

Last edited by cleatis; 01-11-2010 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,907,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
.........Every action has a reaction. If you raise your fist, someone else will too. You hit someone with it, they will too.
Exactly. They need to learn that if they swing at us, we will hit so hard back that their great grand kids will feel it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
....Fighting is no way to solve a problem it just causes pain.
Muslims need to learn that if they start something, their pain will last for generations. so long as they get to talk about how much they hurt and people express sympathy after they START that crap, then they will keep doing it and we will keep having to shock and awe the He** out of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
....If someone does something that is wrong, it doesn't make you right to do the same exact thing to them.
That is what then need to learn.
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:03 PM
 
4,529 posts, read 4,863,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
So you think that war is supposed to stop this cycle of hatred? You think that bombs, tanks, destroyed cities and masses of casualties is going to harbor good feelings towards the west? What about the innocents that suffer from our occupation - Do you think that they have more respect for us now that we've destroyed their home and much of their family? The bottom line is that you aren't going to change someone's mind with a gun to their head. If someone attacks their enemy and it burns your house down in the process are you really going to have good will towards the person responsible? I agree that terrorism is a real threat. But so long as we're pounding our chest and dropping bombs we're breeding all the things that make terrorism - fear and anger. We are feeding terrorism as fast as we're stopping it by pissing people off left and right.
Quite right.

Lowering ourselves to the level of those terrorists makes us no better.

And creating more terrorists by lending credence to the recruiters "Crusading Infidels" recruitment speech certainly isn't a way to "eliminate" terrorism.

While we are giving terrorists free .50 caliber dental wok courtesy of Uncle Sam and the American People, we must also strive to open, and maintain, good diplomatic relationships with Islamic Nations in general.

Remove the monetary, logistical, and recruitment support from their fellow Muslims, organizations like AQ become ineffective old men muttering about infidels around the camp fires in their caves.
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:09 PM
 
4,529 posts, read 4,863,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
Exactly. They need to learn that if they swing at us, we will hit so hard back that their great grand kids will feel it.


Muslims need to learn that if they start something, their pain will last for generations. so long as they get to talk about how much they hurt and people express sympathy after they START that crap, then they will keep doing it and we will keep having to shock and awe the He** out of them.

That is what then need to learn.
Firstly, radical Muslims make up less than one percent of the global Muslim community.

Bombing the crap out of the ME indiscriminatly only feeds terrorism and provides terrorist groups with the proverbial Golden Egg for recruitment.

Terrorist organizations must be addressed independantly while efforts are made to open freindly diplomatic relationships with Muslim countries to eliminate logistical, monetary, and more importantly, personel support from those areas.
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 2,979,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
Exactly. They need to learn that if they swing at us, we will hit so hard back that their great grand kids will feel it.


Muslims need to learn that if they start something, their pain will last for generations. so long as they get to talk about how much they hurt and people express sympathy after they START that crap, then they will keep doing it and we will keep having to shock and awe the He** out of them.

That is what then need to learn.
We should all know how these people respond to this kind of treatment - they are the masters of it. They are still carrying grudges from a thousand years ago, bombing one another for what went on generations ago. What you're proposing here simply feeds this cycle of reaction. This is part of the reason why they are stuck where they are - because of this same cycle of grudges. The grandkids that feel it are the ones who grow up and fly into buildings. You're not solving anything this way, just giving more survivors yet another reason to hate us. People aren't going to stop hating you when you're beating them up. They aren't going to respect you for killing their family. They're going to hate you for it. Then what are they going to do?
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Old 01-11-2010, 04:57 PM
 
40,081 posts, read 26,744,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
So you think that war is supposed to stop this cycle of hatred? You think that bombs, tanks, destroyed cities and masses of casualties is going to harbor good feelings towards the west? What about the innocents that suffer from our occupation - Do you think that they have more respect for us now that we've destroyed their home and much of their family? The bottom line is that you aren't going to change someone's mind with a gun to their head. If someone attacks their enemy and it burns your house down in the process are you really going to have good will towards the person responsible? I agree that terrorism is a real threat. But so long as we're pounding our chest and dropping bombs we're breeding all the things that make terrorism - fear and anger. We are feeding terrorism as fast as we're stopping it by pissing people off left and right.
War has nothing to do with "making good feelings" . . . it is for killing enough and destroying enough so that the will to continue to engage in attacks of ANY kind is eliminated . . . and they genuinely sue for peace. Unfortunately, people with your attitude have convinced the US, our allies and the Israelis that they have to engage in compassionate wars . . . (pure oxymoron) . . . and avoid collateral damge . . . (utter stupidity) . . . it is the collateral damage that will eventually make it impossible for them to continue to wage terror.

All your PC kind have succeeded in doing is trying to "clean up" war (like the Star Trek computer war) enabling it to continue almost indefinitely. We and Israel should wipe out any and all population centers that permit the launching of rockets and mortars or any other kind of terrorist attacks until there are no more, period. Collateral schmollateral . . . Respect schmespect . . . War is supposed to be ugly and evil so it will NOT LAST!
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,907,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
They aren't going to respect you for killing their family. They're going to hate you for it. Then what are they going to do?
they hate me anyway. no difference. so lets let them know up front that for every one of use that dies a thousand of them dies.......it won't stop them, but it will pacify things here for a while......why do you think Saddam stayed in power? If an assassin attempted killing him, he would wipe out the entire village.....that is the kind of message they understand.....and he lived a fairly safe, prosperous life until we interfered.
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:47 PM
 
40,081 posts, read 26,744,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
That's the problem with it, it works for the meanwhile and might work great but it's really just swatting the mosquitos on the surface in the end. Every action has a reaction. If you raise your fist, someone else will too. You hit someone with it, they will too. Fighting is no way to solve a problem it just causes pain.
If someone does something that is wrong, it doesn't make you right to do the same exact thing to them.
This kindergarten logic is patent nonsense. According to your absurd theory NO WAR would ever end!! As long as you do not wage them sufficiently aggressively . . . that is what would in fact ensue (re: Star Trek computer war). It is the utter devastation and evil of war that forces its end.
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 2,979,355 times
Reputation: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
War has nothing to do with "making good feelings" . . . it is for killing enough and destroying enough so that the will to continue to engage in attacks of ANY kind is eliminated . . . and they genuinely sue for peace. Unfortunately, people with your attitude have convinced the US, our allies and the Israelis that they have to engage in compassionate wars . . . (pure oxymoron) . . . and avoid collateral damge . . . (utter stupidity) . . . it is the collateral damage that will eventually make it impossible for them to continue to wage terror.

All your PC kind have succeeded in doing is trying to "clean up" war (like the Star Trek computer war) enabling it to continue almost indefinitely. We and Israel should wipe out any and all population centers that permit the launching of rockets and mortars or any other kind of terrorist attacks until there are no more, period. Collateral schmollateral . . . Respect schmespect . . . War is supposed to be ugly and evil so it will NOT LAST!
Uh, it's the second longest war we have ever been in since our founding and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. So it looks like it is lasting. Not to mention, we have spent more of the last century at war with someone than not. It's like the adage goes - if everyone you meet is a psycho, maybe the problem isn't with everyone else.

Here again, when you hurt people it only breeds more hate. You think that maybe some of the young men who have had their homes and families destroyed by us might be joining with the terrorists?
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Old 01-11-2010, 06:05 PM
 
40,081 posts, read 26,744,474 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis View Post
Uh, it's the second longest war we have ever been in since our founding and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. So it looks like it is lasting. Not to mention, we have spent more of the last century at war with someone than not. It's like the adage goes - if everyone you meet is a psycho, maybe the problem isn't with everyone else.
I guess you missed the part about it has been following the critics of your ilk that has produced the abomination of limited, compassionate, minimal collateral damage warfare. THAT is why it has lasted and will continue to last until someone has the cajones to say "ENOUGH . . . let's end this thing" . . . and start some real killing and destruction. The ONLY ones winning in this ridiculous compassionate warfare are the "iron mongers" and weapons manufacturers.
Quote:
Here again, when you hurt people it only breeds more hate. You think that maybe some of the young men who have had their homes and families destroyed by us might be joining with the terrorists?
Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . blah, blah, blah . . . there needn't be anyone to JOIN . . . if we actually waged war on them and stopped this killing and destruction once and for all.
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