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Old 01-04-2010, 09:49 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,994,772 times
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Not all Palestinians are Hamas and not all history started last year. Nafez Assaily is apparently a Palestinian Sufi pacifist has had access to his land blocked off by soldiers. Ever heard of Irgun and the King David Hotel? Or Deir Yassin. Or Kahane Chai.

HEBRON: Soldiers prevent CPTers from helping friend prune vineyard | Christian Peacemaker Teams

That being said Palestinians I think do suffer from poor demographics and desperation which leads a large percentage of them to bizarre or foolish behavior. The people like Assaily get few followers, but militants get many. Palestine has a disproportionately large number of unmarried men under 30 and that's a group, in any society, often more touched by rage and adventure. Further traditionally the Palestinian culture is also great with major compromise or bargaining. Still even if I've leaned a bit more pro-Israel than I ever thought I would the Israelis have done many stupid or unfair things and I don't entirely like either side.
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
And the Palestinians have got a legitimate complaint concerning the takeover of land they had possessed for centuries. I view it as an insoluble problem.
No, they don't....they have NOT been there for centuries.

From a prior post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post

The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations. The history and origins of today's Palestinians is recorded as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, Muslim Sherkas from Russia, Muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. The civil and tribal wars between Yemmenites (from Yemen) and Kessites (from Banu Kais of Saudi Arabia) ... are well known among Palestinians.....if you were interested in the truth and you are indeed familiar with Palestine you would not keep repeating lies so you can justify the murder of women and children in marketplaces with suicide and car bombers.

A Palestinian Arab named Walid said his village of Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. Answering Islam, A Christian-Muslim Dialog and Apologetic Although the Arabs of Ottoman Palestine may have had certain attachments to the fields they were cultivating they were also destroying the land. because of the wars between the few villages in the area too often they would cut down fruit trees and olives and destroyed the crops of other villages, and this in the end caused as much loss of life through hunger as was caused by the actual casualties of fighting. In spite of the immense fertility of the soil, it is probable that in the first half of the nineteenth century the population sank to the lowest level it had ever known in historic times.

Eyewitnesses such as Mark Twain and Rev. Manning of England who visited the Holy Land in the last century wrote that the land was barren and empty. The population then was less than 5% of today's population.

In fact Joan Peters in her book "From Time Immemorial" says that the return of the Jews in 1800's and early 1900's created jobs and Arabs from impoverished areas were drawn into the Holy Land for work. Peters also says that in 1948 so many Arabs were new to the area and could not qualify for the UN requirement for refugee status (people forced to leave "permanent" or "habitual" homes) that they added a clause permitting refugee status for Arabs who had been there as little as two years.
Palastinians need to return to the lands of their grandfathers........in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Greece, Russia, Bosnia, Egypt, and Jordan.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 22,002,434 times
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Goodpasture: Thanks for the information. I made an assumption which was apparently incorrect. So, virtually no one lived there, other than recent immigrants, when the modern state of Israel was established? That surprises me. I will research the matter. I'm certainly not one to disagree with Mark Twain.
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Old 01-05-2010, 01:08 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,994,772 times
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It's a controversial claim. The area did decline during the Ottoman period, but nineteenth century people used "barren and empty" in a way we wouldn't. (In some cases the term was used to mean a rural area with few trees so "barren and empty" could have meant it was like Kansas or something) Also there are clear and obvious political reasons for selecting writers who emphasized the idea it was barren.

Still it was apparently an underdeveloped region of comparatively meager, although far from non-existent, population. According to academic sources the non-Jewish population of Palestine in 1850 to 1880 was somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000. (I can't find a link to "The Population of Palestine" from 1990, but I'm using it as a source as well)

A History of the Israeli-Palestinian ... - Google Books

It is somewhat true though that they're largely Jordanians and Egyptians. However the idea of giving the West Bank to Jordan, and Gaza to Egypt, is never seriously suggested by anyone so far as I know.
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Unknown
731 posts, read 678,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
No, they don't....they have NOT been there for centuries.


Palastinians need to return to the lands of their grandfathers........in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Greece, Russia, Bosnia, Egypt, and Jordan.
The arabs are originally from Yemen, and the arabs in the gulf are originally yemeni. But the palestinians, egyptians, lebenese, jordanian, syrian, iraqi, north afircan, are originally not arab. The Jews got expelled from Israel by the Romans and then the over the years the Palestinians settled there, so it became their country, and you should respect that.
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:58 PM
 
40,177 posts, read 26,797,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhman92 View Post
The Jews got expelled from Israel by the Romans and then the over the years the Palestinians settled there, so it became their country, and you should respect that.
What makes the expulsion of the Jews from Israel by the Romans different from the Palestinian expulsion from Israel by the British who gave it to the Jews . . . YOU should respect that. The simple reality of this world is that the winners of wars decide all the issues. Israel is there to stay and this senseless slaughter of innocent Jews and then whining when your innocents get caught in the retaliations can NOT produce anything positive . . . ever.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Unknown
731 posts, read 678,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What makes the expulsion of the Jews from Israel by the Romans different from the Palestinian expulsion from Israel by the British who gave it to the Jews . . . YOU should respect that. The simple reality of this world is that the winners of wars decide all the issues. Israel is there to stay and this senseless slaughter of innocent Jews and then whining when your innocents get caught in the retaliations can NOT produce anything positive . . . ever.
If your land got stolen today, on top of that you face racism and get treated like a 2nd class citizen, would you be happy? I bet you anything you would hate it from your heart, but you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, because countries like the U.S. would fund the country you hate 7 mil per day. This is a nightmare, but its an everyday struggle, but on the other hand you have ignorants who blame your people, as if they visited the country itself.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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I think there is more than enough blame to go around. The land has been fought over for millenia.
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Old 01-09-2010, 02:32 PM
 
8,343 posts, read 9,815,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhman92 View Post
The arabs are originally from Yemen, and the arabs in the gulf are originally yemeni. But the palestinians, egyptians, lebenese, jordanian, syrian, iraqi, north afircan, are originally not arab. The Jews got expelled from Israel by the Romans and then the over the years the Palestinians settled there, so it became their country, and you should respect that.
Actually, everyone should respect that the Jews were there before the Palestinians, as you even said yourself.
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Old 01-09-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,919,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thHour View Post
Actually, everyone should respect that the Jews were there before the Palestinians, as you even said yourself.
There are two ways of looking at this........

1) If taking other peoples land is wrong, then the Jews have a right to that land that predates that of the Palestinians.

2) If the taking of land by might establishes ownership of the land, then the Jews have a right to that land that supercedes that of the Palestinians.



It seems that Palestinians, as relatively recent immigrants into that area, and as even more recently evicted victims of the newest immigrants, are a footnote with no claim to the land. Either one or the other of the two scenarios apply. Either way, the land is Israel, not Palestine.
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