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Old 01-07-2010, 06:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jazzymom
This analysis is from national geographic?! I doubt their intentions, as so I doubt many American movies that show any praying Muslim as a terrorist or a murderer?! While most of 1.5 billion Muslims pray five times a day at least.

Regards,
mahmoud


I did not post the above Mahmoud, I posted the post below

It actually was very balanced in its information about the Quran and Muslims. It did not depict Muslims as terrorists so before you judge maybe you ought to watch it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
Mahmoud,

It actually was very balanced in its information about the Quran and Muslims. It did not depict Muslims as terrorists so before you judge maybe you ought to watch it.

Jazzy
I'll watch it by God willing, i was replying to what was written, i don't have a fast internet connection, so to download it will take time, and i had work to do yesterday


Any way InsaneInDaMembrane summarized his conculsion, so i replied to his conculsion, and i hope the information i wrote will clarify this topics.


Regards
mahmoud[/quote]


Mahmoud,

I think you should watch it then come to your conclusions. Not all people are against Islam, most don't understand Islam or the violence coming from the terrorists. No one understands how people can blow themselves up and kill innocents in the name of God. I believe Muslims need to be really honest with themselves and see the trouble happening in Islam. I also know that historically Islam has not been the only religion to be violent. What religions need to do is to live in peace with others and just accept as it is said in Islam, " you have your religion and I have mine". Especially those who believe they have the only truth. What is your truth is not my or the truth of others but we can still live in peace and respect.

Jazzy
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:50 AM
 
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It's very much a case of "get the log out of your own eye before you try to get the speck out of mine."

If Muslims want to be seen as ambassadors of peace, they need to fix, correct, banish, eliminate or otherwise castrate the violence of many of their own. Muslims are responsible for the actions of Muslims, just as Christians are responsible for the actions of Christians.

That may not be fair to you if you are a peaceful believer on either side, but that's the reality. When you say you believe in peace yet do *nothing* to stop the violence by people claiming the same beliefs as you, people see you as a hypocrite and a coward at best, and a silent supporter violence at worst.

This goes for all religions. But Islam seems to have a greater disconnect on this front than some.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:49 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
It's very much a case of "get the log out of your own eye before you try to get the speck out of mine."

If Muslims want to be seen as ambassadors of peace, they need to fix, correct, banish, eliminate or otherwise castrate the violence of many of their own. Muslims are responsible for the actions of Muslims, just as Christians are responsible for the actions of Christians.

That may not be fair to you if you are a peaceful believer on either side, but that's the reality. When you say you believe in peace yet do *nothing* to stop the violence by people claiming the same beliefs as you, people see you as a hypocrite and a coward at best, and a silent supporter violence at worst.

This goes for all religions. But Islam seems to have a greater disconnect on this front than some.
which kind of responsibility does rightious have upon the crimers ? and i'm talking in general not according to religions

you said that muslims are responsibe for crimes of muslims and christians responsible for the crimes of christians and may be i have to add that athiests are responsible for crimes of athiests .
if this is your rational of thinking , then don't blame those who says that americans are responsible for the crimes of america and jews responsible for the crimes of israil
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:07 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,290,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
which kind of responsibility does rightious have upon the crimers ? and i'm talking in general not according to religions

you said that muslims are responsibe for crimes of muslims and christians responsible for the crimes of christians and may be i have to add that athiests are responsible for crimes of athiests .
if this is your rational of thinking , then don't blame those who says that americans are responsible for the crimes of america and jews responsible for the crimes of israil
If you claim a label for yourself, then you should not be upset when someone holds you responsible for the crimes others of the same label commit. By choosing and applying a label, by becoming part of the group, you are in effect accepting some level of responsibility for the actions of that group.

It is key, however, that the group be organized and centralized. This is true of Islam and Christianity, as the churches have a hierarchy of authority they obey.

It's bit more difficult with atheists. I am an atheist, but not an Atheist, meaning I am not a member nor claim membership in any organization that bases its existence on atheism. I am not a member of American Atheists, so I am not responsible for the behavior of American Atheists.

Societies are different than governments. I can be an American, but not a voluntary participant of the United States Federal Government. So when the US Government does something, I do not feel responsible for it, because any "support" the US Government has gotten from me it has achieve via compulsion and coercion. I do understand that proximity will lay a certain amount of guilt upon me from others. Which is why I will openly speak out against the actions of groups that are in proximity to me in order to differentiate my responsibility from their actions.

I do not see many Muslims decrying or working against the violent Muslims. I do not see many Christians openly opposed to the violent acts of many extremist Christians. I do believe that if you are a Catholic, for example, and you have not worked with your church to eliminate and prevent child abuse by your group, then you share a level of moral responsibility when a child is raped by a Catholic priest. This may not be criminal responsibility, of course. But I will certainly include such inaction in my evaluation of you as a self-proclaimed member of the group.

Make better sense?
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:47 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
If you claim a label for yourself, then you should not be upset when someone holds you responsible for the crimes others of the same label commit. By choosing and applying a label, by becoming part of the group, you are in effect accepting some level of responsibility for the actions of that group.

It is key, however, that the group be organized and centralized. This is true of Islam and Christianity, as the churches have a hierarchy of authority they obey.

It's bit more difficult with atheists. I am an atheist, but not an Atheist, meaning I am not a member nor claim membership in any organization that bases its existence on atheism. I am not a member of American Atheists, so I am not responsible for the behavior of American Atheists.

Societies are different than governments. I can be an American, but not a voluntary participant of the United States Federal Government. So when the US Government does something, I do not feel responsible for it, because any "support" the US Government has gotten from me it has achieve via compulsion and coercion. I do understand that proximity will lay a certain amount of guilt upon me from others. Which is why I will openly speak out against the actions of groups that are in proximity to me in order to differentiate my responsibility from their actions.

I do not see many Muslims decrying or working against the violent Muslims. I do not see many Christians openly opposed to the violent acts of many extremist Christians. I do believe that if you are a Catholic, for example, and you have not worked with your church to eliminate and prevent child abuse by your group, then you share a level of moral responsibility when a child is raped by a Catholic priest. This may not be criminal responsibility, of course. But I will certainly include such inaction in my evaluation of you as a self-proclaimed member of the group.

Make better sense?
it makes sense offcourse . what about that comparison to your bold statement

i can be a muslim but not participate to the terrorist groups , then i don't feel responsible for it either .

i see myself responsible for one thing , i'm responsible for my beliefs and i'm responsible for teaching of islam , and i'm responsible to preach the massage of islam which i understand , yet i'm not responsible for those who misunderstood the quran and i'm not responsible for those whom disobeying allah , and i'm not responsible for the ignorance of other muslims


and according to your reaction for the wrong your country did (which i bolded in your quote] , i will feel pleased to tell you that majority of muslims in the world speaking against the action of terrorists either

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

what about that ?
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Old 01-07-2010, 10:30 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,290,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
it makes sense offcourse . what about that comparison to your bold statement

i can be a muslim but not participate to the terrorist groups , then i don't feel responsible for it either .

i see myself responsible for one thing , i'm responsible for my beliefs and i'm responsible for teaching of islam , and i'm responsible to preach the massage of islam which i understand , yet i'm not responsible for those who misunderstood the quran and i'm not responsible for those whom disobeying allah , and i'm not responsible for the ignorance of other muslims
If you claim to be a Muslim, then you need to be taking action to stop those Muslims who are the wrong kinds of Muslims long before you ever consider educating non-Muslims. Fix your own before you try to fix me. Actually, don't try to fix me at all.

Quote:
and according to your reaction for the wrong your country did (which i bolded in your quote] , i will feel pleased to tell you that majority of muslims in the world speaking against the action of terrorists either

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

what about that ?
I think it's good. But recognize this difference. Each and ever Muslim chooses to be a Muslim. I did not get to choose to be an American. It was random chance. To fault me for the actions of the US Government because of the random geography of my birth is different than faulting you for the actions of your voluntarily chosen peers.

To make it clear, I have *never* supported the interfering actions of the US Federal Government in the Middle East. Not even on 9/11. They get my tax money because I will be thrown in jail and my family torn apart if I don't give it to them. What they do with that tax money is not my responsibility any more than if a common thief were to rob me.

Now, if I were a voter, a party member, and a voluntary contributer... then you could blame me for the actions of the Federal government.

Muslims, however, choose their religion. Choose to participate and label themselves such. Choose to be a part of the organization and to fund it. Anyone forced into Islam obviously is not any more responsible for what Muslims do than I am for what US soldiers do, because such support is coercive and not volunteered. But the vast majority of Muslims are by choice, and that puts the burden of responsibility on them, whether they like it or not.

If Muslims want the world to believe them a religion of peace, there are many things they must do internally to their own organization and culture to convince everyone.

I hold the same charge to the Christians and the Catholic and the Israelis, and the citizens of the United States.

Think of it this way. You have exactly the religion you deserve. Nothing more, nothing less. Americans have exactly the government they deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

For those who drop out of such organizations there is some freedom from that great responsibility, even if they do not escape the consequences of proximity.
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
If you claim to be a Muslim, then you need to be taking action to stop those Muslims who are the wrong kinds of Muslims long before you ever consider educating non-Muslims. Fix your own before you try to fix me. Actually, don't try to fix me at all.
which kind of action do you suggest other than condemns their acts and preach the correct masage


Quote:
I think it's good. But recognize this difference. Each and ever Muslim chooses to be a Muslim. I did not get to choose to be an American. It was random chance. To fault me for the actions of the US Government because of the random geography of my birth is different than faulting you for the actions of your voluntarily chosen peers.
it's fair enough to say that being american was a rondom chance

but actually although i'm muslim but i'm sure that some of muslims will going against it's teaching ? should i be sure that 100% of muslims will become rightious and devout muslims before i choose islam as my relegion ?





Quote:
To make it clear, I have *never* supported the interfering actions of the US Federal Government in the Middle East. Not even on 9/11. They get my tax money because I will be thrown in jail and my family torn apart if I don't give it to them. What they do with that tax money is not my responsibility any more than if a common thief were to rob me.
Now, if I were a voter, a party member, and a voluntary contributer... then you could blame me for the actions of the Federal government.
i dosn't accuse you as american because of your govenment and i don't accuse christians because of the acts of some briests , it's isn't my way of thinking . i just was testing your theory about responsibility


Quote:
If Muslims want the world to believe them a religion of peace, there are many things they must do internally to their own organization and culture to convince everyone.
yes , i agree with you in that
i believe that we need to return and follow the teaching of islam , as for many muslims go far beyond it's teaching


Quote:
Think of it this way. You have exactly the religion you deserve. Nothing more, nothing less. Americans have exactly the government they deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

For those who drop out of such organizations there is some freedom from that great responsibility, even if they do not escape the consequences of proximity.
i can understand the kind of responsibilty you are talking about , but i really don't know what i supposed to do if i read in the newspaper for example that someone who is muslim killed inncent christians in someplace in the world .
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:43 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,290,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
which kind of action do you suggest other than condemns their acts and preach the correct masage
I don't know. What action do *you* think would be effective? You know more about them than I. All I see is a fractured and divided movement with massive complacency to the actions of a select few.


Quote:
but actually although i'm muslim but i'm sure that some of muslims will going against it's teaching ? should i be sure that 100% of muslims will become rightious and devout muslims before i choose islam as my relegion ?
Maybe. But if you are going to join, then are you not accepting the responsibility to deal with them as best as you can?


Quote:
yes , i agree with you in that
i believe that we need to return and follow the teaching of islam , as for many muslims go far beyond it's teaching
Are you okay if I disagree? If I choose not to follow Islam, could we still be neighbors? Because of the actions of your peers in Islam, I have to ask, and there is a level of mistrust that must be fixed.


Quote:
i can understand the kind of responsibilty you are talking about , but i really don't know what i supposed to do if i read in the newspaper for example that someone who is muslim killed inncent christians in someplace in the world .
You may not be able to stop it around the world, but maybe you can stop it next door.
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:02 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
I don't know. What action do *you* think would be effective? You know more about them than I. All I see is a fractured and divided movement with massive complacency to the actions of a select few.
actually i never met terrorists before


Quote:
Maybe. But if you are going to join, then are you not accepting the responsibility to deal with them as best as you can?
i allready said to you i'm responsible to preach the massage of islam which i understand

Quote:
Are you okay if I disagree? If I choose not to follow Islam, could we still be neighbors? Because of the actions of your peers in Islam, I have to ask, and there is a level of mistrust that must be fixed.
offcourse it okey with me


Quote:
You may not be able to stop it around the world, but maybe you can stop it next door.
you are right
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,525 posts, read 14,906,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
which kind of action do you suggest other than condemns their acts and preach the correct masage
How about letting authorities know when someone begins preaching hatred or support for terrorism. How about offering to translate for local and state police. How about when you hear someone talking about how someone should be run into the sea or that someone has no rights and should be killed that you stand up and denounce them in public. How about publicly saying Shira law is not suited for the 21st century and that a secular state provides for the greatest freedom in work, religion, women's rights, and personal security.

The problem is, if you do this, they will try to kill you.......freedom of speech is not something they want others to have......and this is the root of the problem with Islam.......where other faiths teach peace consistently throughout their liturgy.....Christians teach "turn the other cheek" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and atheists teach "live and let live" and Buddhists are trying to be one with the world in harmony........in Islam it is "kill your enemies" where Christians are taught to "love their enemies."

I have stated several times that I am Tsa La Ghi.....Cherokee.....who, 170 years ago were abused and robbed of their land and imprisoned for nothing more than being Cherokee......the reason I am a patriotic American today and my father and my grandfather and my grandfathers before him all fought on the side of the United States (I was in Viet Nam, my father was WWII, my grandfather was WWI, my great grandfather was in the Spanish American War, his father was in the civil war, his father died in the Creek wars, his father was in the American revolution) is because we recognize that today.......at the moment in time we live, we....none of us......fought to impose a faith on anyone else and we fought to free those who were not free. Voltaire said "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." IS the way we are in this country. And this is why we defend it......not in the name of a god, but in the name of personal freedom to express yourself........and Islam would take that freedom from me.
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