U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-06-2010, 12:26 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,906,280 times
Reputation: 1354

Advertisements

I watched this 2-hour program on the National Geographic Channel last night and it was VERY informative. Sideline narration allowed Muslims from different camps and locations to explain themselves as well as the koran itself. From the very start, one thing becomes clearly evident and that is, the many paradoxes. There in the Koran are verses of war and peace, tolerance and intolerance, preservation of life and killing next to each other. There are verses that speaks of deterred punishment if guilty parties sincerely repents which, apparently, is ignored in favor of the punishment first and the repentance after.

These paradoxes, when presented to different Muslims seem to produce a myriad of interpretations from rigid to "room for flexible interpretation." Like Christianity, on the very basics there may be some uniformity, but once we start getting to areas just beyond the core, the differences from place to place are startling AND has, over the years, been the source of much bloodshed WITHIN Muslim communities. In fact, modern day Muslim suicide bombers have no regard for who they are killing which are oftentimes fellow Muslims. Their source of inspiration to carry out their deadly deeds are in the same Koran next to verses that discourage the very acts they carry out. Again, paradoxes. As one Muslim scholar living in England pointed out, the Koran has two audiences - those still with a 10th century mindset preferring a more rigid interpretation and those of the 21st century who are more open to some flexibility. Is it a fault within the Koran or it is it the reader?

Another thing that really caught my attention was the pressure placed on some Muslim women to suppress themselves because of men. They have to hide their beauty because the men can't help themselves (this, of course, is not explicitly said, but it is clearly understood). They are held responsible for what men do or don't do. The understanding is that it is their fault why men lust so they (the women) need to hide every inch of skin so men won't fall all over themselves sinning against Allah. Other times some Muslim have to restrict themselves in favor of the man and his ego.

Finally, the carefully created and guarded facade of a pure, uncorrupted, unchanged Koran is shattered when looked at more closely. Since critical analysis of the text is severely discouraged, even deadly in some places, the myth persists for the most part, however, evidence, not that hard to find proves all is not peaches and cream when it comes to this holy book.

I suggest watching the next showing on January 12 at 4 pm (EST). In the meantime, here is a clip:

Inside the Koran | National Geographic Channel (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/inside-the-koran-3466/Overview#tab-Videos/05522_00 - broken link)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-06-2010, 12:40 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,875 posts, read 31,754,043 times
Reputation: 12622
It doesn't sound a whole lot different than the paradoxes that exist in the bible, and make me wonder how similar a Christian theocracy would be to the Muslim ones that exist today...I believe there wouldn't be a lot of difference should Rick Warren's dream of dominionism ever be realized.

Last edited by sanspeur; 01-06-2010 at 01:00 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 12:57 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,906,280 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
It doesn't sound a whole lot different than the paradoxes that exist in the bible, and make me wonder how similar a Christian theocracy would be to the Muslim ones that exist today...I believe there wouldn't be a lot of difference should Rick Warren's dream of dominionism should be ever be realized.
Yes, there are many similarities, some that Muslims might not claim are there but do exist. There was a frightening admission made by some cleric in the video. He admitted that Koranic laws that expresses harsh punishments for things that are not death penalty worthy on this side of the world should be allowed to be carried out across the "Muslim world." What exactly is the 'Muslim world?' Is it any piece of earth where Muslims reside or is it nations that are Muslim? Is this not the issue with Sharia law today? Aren't there Muslims who want to carry out these laws within their communities and put them above the law of the land?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,342 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I watched this 2-hour program on the National Geographic Channel last night and it was VERY informative. Sideline narration allowed Muslims from different camps and locations to explain themselves as well as the koran itself. From the very start, one thing becomes clearly evident and that is, the many paradoxes. There in the Koran are verses of war and peace, tolerance and intolerance, preservation of life and killing next to each other. There are verses that speaks of deterred punishment if guilty parties sincerely repents which, apparently, is ignored in favor of the punishment first and the repentance after.
Quote:
Their source of inspiration to carry out their deadly deeds are in the same Koran next to verses that discourage the very acts they carry out.
The point is simple, in the holy Qur'an, God does not have say the word twice,

When He says the do not harm civilians, then the next verses talks about war, then any child will understand that this war is only on soldiers

The problem is that are some Muslims who have less minds than infants? sad as it is

Lets see these 5 verses, these are the first verses taking about war, in chapter 2

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.


See the first verse, so logically the next is talking about soldiers:, and in the next verse you see the word catch, in Arabic the word is “thaqeftomohom” meaning meeting at war.


191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.


And then again the next verse command to stop fighting


192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


Then see the next verse, make clear that what’s it’s taking about the only two reasons for war in Islam, defending the country and the right of peaceful preaching.


193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

See, a child can understand the meaning.

The holy Quran must be taking as whole, not take one verse and separate it from the before and after verses


What is noticeable is that the holy Qur’an (to muslims and non muslims) is that it always repeatedly makes the comparison between the reward for good persons and the punishment of criminal persons, in a way that you don’t read 3 pages and you will read this comparison

When a religion talks about the afterlife, it’s talking mainly to its followers (God knows best)

When a father talks to his son and he wants him not to be a criminal, he tells him about the murderers and criminals and their fate, this is more kind than telling him (you’ll go to hell if you do this),

This is basically intended, for any muslim to see and feel this fact if reads only a small amount of the holy Qur’an, this is intended for any muslim even who read very little

http://www.city-data.com/forum/6681672-post22.html

And who can judge a non Muslim that he will be a non believer till the last breathe of his life,

When the holy Qur’an uses the word “Kafer” , this word means in the Arabic language (who covers an imported thing with a cover) it means that he knows the truth and he covered his heart from hearing it, this means that only God who decides who is (kafer) or not,

You should understand these verses in the holy Qur’an from this view, and in fact many Muslims should understand it from this view also, even if they are not from the few criminals who are a shame to Islam.


Te majority of Muslims know that they have to be kind to peaceful non Muslims, cause this is an order from the prophet (pbuh) and holy Qur’an,

They somehow are confused about who will go to heaven and hell, and many think that all non moslims are going to hell,

This is not related to dealing with then in this life, the holy Qur’an and the prophet’s orders are clear, to deal with t hem kindly, as I mentioned the verses

This is simple analysis of the issue of heaven and hell from my view:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/6516740-post19.html



The verses in the holy Qur’an and the prophet’s orders are clear, to deal with them kindly,

8. God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just
.
9. God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. holy Qur’n, chapter 60)

125. Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. (holy Qur’an, chapter 16)


No one should be compelled to change his religion, and this was the way through Islamic history

256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (holy Qur’an chapter 2)

99. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! (holy Qur’an chapter 10)

The point is clear, God does not have to say the word twice, when he orders to not hurt civilians then the order is strict and clear.





Quote:
These paradoxes, when presented to different Muslims seem to produce a myriad of interpretations from rigid to "room for flexible interpretation." Like Christianity, on the very basics there may be some uniformity, but once we start getting to areas just beyond the core, the differences from place to place are startling AND has, over the years, been the source of much bloodshed WITHIN Muslim communities. In fact, modern day Muslim suicide bombers have no regard for who they are killing which are oftentimes fellow Muslims. Their source of inspiration to carry out their deadly deeds are in the same Koran next to verses that discourage the very acts they carry out.
I explained the part regarding non muslims, and next to next verses.


Regardingsome muslims killing other muslims.

This is related to the punishment of apostasy, Apostasy is that is an already Muslim leaves Islam by his will in an Islamic country, there are two Islamic main opinions in this, one is that he has three days of discussion with Muslim scholars, if he insists then the punishment is death provided that he is still in the Muslim country, and this punishment is only done by the court, No one has the right do this punishment by himself even if the law is not applying this punishment,

The other opinion, and that's the one i choose, that there is no punishment at all regarding personally leaving Islam, without trying to make disturbance and political conflicts in the Muslim country, the Mufti of Egypt also chooses this opinion by the way.

I admit that some Muslim extremists try to use the punishment of apostasy to brain wash some idiot youth, by depriving this opinion from its constrains I mentioned, this is stupidity, sad as it is,


This first opinion has no evidence from the holy Quran, it’s a tradition, traditions have degrees of authenticity, not all traditions are authentic, and it was taking about political apostasy,, meaning that the apostate make top treason and try to split the country and make civil war.


we must mention and stress on the clear right tradition from the prophet the tells that any moslim who accuse another moslim that he is a “kafer” or apostate, and he is not, then the statement is returned to him “kafer” till he repents ,and repeat the statement of belief “th Shahada” as if he is new to Islam.

No one has the right to call another moslim an apostate, this the right of the court and judges only.

For a Muslims to kill another Muslim, this is the biggest crime possible

93. If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. (holy Qur’an chapter 4)

Killing another human being is as if killing all humanity

32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (holy Qur’an chapter 5)








Quote:
Again, paradoxes. As one Muslim scholar living in England pointed out, the Koran has two audiences - those still with a 10th century mindset preferring a more rigid interpretation and those of the 21st century who are more open to some flexibility. Is it a fault within the Koran or it is it the reader?
IT ‘s the fault of the reader,

But even who see the Qur’an from the 10th century does not do terrorism, they are called “Salafess” and they are not terrorists, they are just fundamentalists who see the ways of the past are the best, I disagree with them in many things, but they are harmless, and they have their logic and life that they agree upon (Men and Women). Some of my colleges are Salafees, and they are kind people, and I enjoy their company. (We work at a software company by the way)



Quote:
Another thing that really caught my attention was the pressure placed on some Muslim women to suppress themselves because of men. They have to hide their beauty because the men can't help themselves (this, of course, is not explicitly said, but it is clearly understood). They are held responsible for what men do or don't do. The understanding is that it is their fault why men lust so they (the women) need to hide every inch of skin so men won't fall all over themselves sinning against Allah. Other times some Muslim have to restrict themselves in favor of the man and his ego.
The women Islamic dress does not implies that men are excused or pardoned if they see naked or stripped women, It’s a culture that provides pure morals, most women dress it willingly cause they want to be morally pure, some do it without their will, I admit, but this does not negate that this dress is morally beneficial, just look at the rate of sex between youth in the west, the number of children without marriage who do not know both of one of their parents, and their suffering.

This dress is culture of morals, not an excuse for men to look wherever they like, the culture is one both sexes, men and women

Women has all their rights, from the main Islamic law, their relatives (husbands ,brothers, uncles , fathers) are responsible for all their expenses, and all the inheritance and money they get are for their own benefit, they sometimes inherit less that their brothers cuase her brother is responsible for all their expenses in additional to his wife, but in other inheritance situation she inherit more than men.

They can work, it’s their right, but many moslims prefer the wife to be a house wife, and this is proven in the west to be the most honorable job (you watch Dr Phill?), My mother is an engineer by the way.

She has the full right to elect and participate in the political uses, this was from the very beginning of the foundations of the moslim state in Medina, and even before it, women had their voice heard, sad that some muslims countries lack this.

They can divorce themselves, ( not applied in all muslim countries, yes ,but the law is there, it’s applied in Egypt by the way), and it's derived form the holy Qur'an and prophet's tradition.

They must be treated kindly, the prophet “pbuh” strictly repeatedly ordered Muslims to treated their wives kindly, even when he was dying he repeated this order, he said that the best men are the best to their wives, he never beat any of his wives,

The verse that allow small beating with a stick like a toothbrush is only like a simple indication, it’s the very last solution as mentioned in the verses before, and again the prophet never used it.

These are some verses from many that orders kindness to women:

19. O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (holy Qur’an chapter 4)

232. When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and Allah knows, and ye know not. (holy Qur’an chapter 2)
236. There is no blame on you if ye divorce women before consummation or the fixation of their dower; but bestow on them (A suitable gift), the wealthy according to his means, and the poor according to his means;- A gift of a reasonable amount is due from those who wish to do the right thing. (holy Qur’an chapter 2)









Quote:
Finally, the carefully created and guarded facade of a pure, uncorrupted, unchanged Koran is shattered when looked at more closely. Since critical analysis of the text is severely discouraged, even deadly in some places, the myth persists for the most part, however, evidence, not that hard to find proves all is not peaches and cream when it comes to this holy book.

I suggest watching the next showing on January 12 at 4 pm (EST). In the meantime, here is a clip:

Inside the Koran | National Geographic Channel
This analysis is from national geographic?! I doubt their intentions, as so I doubt many American movies that show any praying Muslim as a terrorist or a murderer?! While most of 1.5 billion Muslims pray five times a day at least.

Regards,
mahmoud

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 01-06-2010 at 10:55 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 11:01 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,680 times
Reputation: 807
I taped it and then watched it. It was really informative.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,189,484 times
Reputation: 14007
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
It doesn't sound a whole lot different than the paradoxes that exist in the bible, and make me wonder how similar a Christian theocracy would be to the Muslim ones that exist today...I believe there wouldn't be a lot of difference should Rick Warren's dream of dominionism ever be realized.
I agree. The two are cut from the same piece of cloth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 01:10 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,680 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
It doesn't sound a whole lot different than the paradoxes that exist in the bible, and make me wonder how similar a Christian theocracy would be to the Muslim ones that exist today...I believe there wouldn't be a lot of difference should Rick Warren's dream of dominionism ever be realized.

Just go over to the Christian forum and you will see what a Christian theocracy might look like.

I believe anytime you have religions that think they are right and everyone else is wrong and going to hell and need to be saved you have trouble.

Christianity has already proved historically what it is capable of....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 01:16 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,424,680 times
Reputation: 807
This analysis is from national geographic?! I doubt their intentions, as so I doubt many American movies that show any praying Muslim as a terrorist or a murderer?! While most of 1.5 billion Muslims pray five times a day at least.

Regards,
mahmoud[/quote]


Mahmoud,

It actually was very balanced in its information about the Quran and Muslims. It did not depict Muslims as terrorists so before you judge maybe you ought to watch it.

Jazzy
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,906,280 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahmoud View Post
This analysis is from national geographic?! I doubt their intentions, as so I doubt many American movies that show any praying Muslim as a terrorist or a murderer?! While most of 1.5 billion Muslims pray five times a day at least.

Regards,
mahmoud

Mahmoud,

Quote:
It actually was very balanced in its information about the Quran and Muslims. It did not depict Muslims as terrorists so before you judge maybe you ought to watch it.

Jazzy
I agree with you Jazzy. That show was great!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2010, 03:01 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,342 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
This analysis is from national geographic?! I doubt their intentions, as so I doubt many American movies that show any praying Muslim as a terrorist or a murderer?! While most of 1.5 billion Muslims pray five times a day at least.

Regards,
mahmoud

Mahmoud,

It actually was very balanced in its information about the Quran and Muslims. It did not depict Muslims as terrorists so before you judge maybe you ought to watch it.

Jazzy[/quote]

I'll watch it by God willing, i was replying to what was written, i don't have a fast internet connection, so to download it will take time, and i had work to do yesterday


Any way InsaneInDaMembrane summarized his conculsion, so i replied to his conculsion, and i hope the information i wrote will clarify this topics.


Regards
mahmoud
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top