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Old 01-07-2010, 11:36 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I apologize as I misunderstood your point. I was making the reference to your words on the Old Testament. I also posted to your question to an earlier post, but maybe that isn't it.
Yes, I was asking you to REaddress post number 14 because I did not see where you addressed my main question in that post. That main question was:

"What do you think was more likely" with those Old Testament stories?
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:53 PM
 
696 posts, read 783,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Yes, I was asking you to REaddress post number 14 because I did not see where you addressed my main question in that post. That main question was:

"What do you think was more likely" with those Old Testament stories?
My original point on it was the answer. I guess you do not see God's judgement is just I do. I personally feel I should be cast into the lake of fire, or hell, or outer darkness. God sees it different and gave me Christ. However, if he casts me to outer darkness who am I. I was warned I had my chance. I submit to One who knows all.

I can not speak for those times as again God controls all affairs. I do know the Bible speaks that they had their time of repentence. They knew it not. God is just and judges justly. I see nothing in life where his hand is not involved.

Even the Jews themselves brought the idols of the Cananites on themselves and faced destruction and exile. They had their chance as did those they expeled. Even after that Christ came as the stone the builders rejected. That rejection gave me a chance. Do I know why? No.

Many people make something out of the OT it is not. They dwell on things they do not like or cant agree with to justify it. Then all they want is the NT. But truely how can one know guilt if one does not have the OT.

But in all God will reward whom he will and God will remove whom he will. There is nothing in the OT that doesnt have God or Jesus for that matter as all 66 books point to him. Jesus is the central figure even if he is only in a small number of books. Everyone else are supporting figures.
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
My original point on it was the answer. I guess you do not see God's judgement is just I do. I personally feel I should be cast into the lake of fire, or hell, or outer darkness. God sees it different and gave me Christ. However, if he casts me to outer darkness who am I. I was warned I had my chance. I submit to One who knows all.

I can not speak for those times as again God controls all affairs. I do know the Bible speaks that they had their time of repentence. They knew it not. God is just and judges justly. I see nothing in life where his hand is not involved.

Even the Jews themselves brought the idols of the Cananites on themselves and faced destruction and exile. They had their chance as did those they expeled. Even after that Christ came as the stone the builders rejected. That rejection gave me a chance. Do I know why? No.

Many people make something out of the OT it is not. They dwell on things they do not like or cant agree with to justify it. Then all they want is the NT. But truely how can one know guilt if one does not have the OT.

But in all God will reward whom he will and God will remove whom he will. There is nothing in the OT that doesnt have God or Jesus for that matter as all 66 books point to him. Jesus is the central figure even if he is only in a small number of books. Everyone else are supporting figures.
You nor the person (Fundamentalist) who I originally asked the question till have not answered it. What was more likely? Was it men behaving badly and then tossing a god into the evils to sanitize it OR was it truly a god who ordered people to be killed and even killed people himself?
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I am still wishing this thread be moved from this forum, but I need to address this.

If you removed the Old Testament from the Christian "total" package, then you have a point there, but since many Christians incorporate the Old Testament into their belief system (at least when convenient) what you say is not entirely true. The Old Testament has quite a few examples that goes WITH the very grain of the 'Holy Bible.' I am not an unbeliever who will say god did this or god did that and put the blame on some deity that does not exist, but what I will say, however, is that the Old Testament contains some very vile things in the name of god where MEN claimed he authored certain evils against others.
That is true and you make great points that God in the bible did order the deaths of people as well but in the Koran people are killed because they won't believe, they wouldn't convert and in the bible people were killed because they were wicked such as attacking and killing other tribes, raping, human sacrifice especially their own children. What do you think people deserve if they sacrifice children?

In the Old Testament there are laws and the penalty was very severe and with good reason but regradless those laws were meant for those Jews during that period and not now so we Christians are not bound by that because through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ we usher in a New Covenant in which those laws did not carry over but the Koran doesn't have that so they are still bound to those teachings of killing the infidel, that Jews and Christians are dogs and pigs etc.....

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 01-08-2010 at 08:40 AM..
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Old 01-08-2010, 08:38 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,426,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
This is immensly false as anyone who has done a true study of the word Allah come from would know. Read above post as I have generalized it, and then study again. Secondly if you truely study the rise of Islam you would no long before the Crusades(which were wrong) that the Jews were constantly attacked by the faith of Islam. I would ask what basis you get your information, not as a direct personal attack against you, but your words have been disproven constantly

Of note Ismael was never promised more than nationhood from God for the sake of Abraham. This is something many dont understand or neglect to see. It was Salvation from Isaac the true first born of Abraham thru his true wife Sarah. While they are brothers both whom have failed to accept Christ the promises to each are distinctly different.

As to where I get my information, early in my life I became interested in religion and in my 20's started to study Christianity, Islam and Judaism. I got my knowledge from learning about Islam. I studied without bias as I had no religion at the time to slant what I learned. I had nothing to prove or disprove. I studied Islam for 3 years and attended a mosque, learning about the religion from the inside out. So I actually do know what I am talking about. I also studied Judaism and chose to become a Jew by choice.

What I have taken away from it all is that when it comes to violence done in the name of God it is Christianity then Islam as far as violence goes. Islam surely has a violent past, and also in this day and age but its history is not as long as Christianity's. Christianity has a far longer history of violence from its becoming legal to The emancipation of the Jews from the ghettos where they were forced to live by Christian rulers. That isn't even the end of violence against Jews. During WW2 the Christian world turned away boat loads of Jews trying to escape Nazi Germany to be turned back where they met certain death.

I have also found there is an arrogance with Christians and Muslims to always look at the reality of the violence with their own biases. Everyone else is wrong and it doesn't seem to matter if folks are actually making a valid and true point. If it takes a position that is counter to what Christianity or Islam say its wrong, and the poster is often disparaged for not knowing what they are talking about.

As for Ismael and Abraham:

Biblical Data: Eldest son of Abraham by his concubine Hagar; born when Abraham was eighty-six years of age (Gen. xvi. 15, 16). God promised Abraham that His blessing should be upon Ishmael, who, He foretold, would beget twelve princes and would become a great nation (Gen. xvii. 18, 20). Ishmael was circumcised at the age of thirteen (Gen. xvii. 23-26). When Sarah saw Ishmael mocking her son Isaac, his brother, younger by fourteen years, she insisted that Abraham cast out Ishmael and his slave-mother. Abraham reluctantly yielded, having provided them with bread and a bottle of water. Ishmael was about to die of thirst when an angel showed his mother a well, repeating to her at the same time that Ishmael would become a great nation. Ishmael dwelt in the wilderness, apparently, of Beer-sheba, where he became a skillful archer; later he settled in the wilderness of Paran, where his mother took him a wife from Egypt (Gen. xxi. 8-21). Both Ishmael and Isaac were present at the burial of their father, Abraham. Ishmael died at the age of 137. He had twelve sons, ancestors of twelve tribes that dwelt "from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goes to Assyria" (Gen. xxv. 9-18).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=I&
artid=277#ixzz0c23iaYKP

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Old 01-08-2010, 08:55 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That is true and you make great points that God in the bible did order the deaths of people as well but in the Koran people are killed because they won't believe, they wouldn't convert and in the bible people were killed because they were wicked such as attacking and killing other tribes, raping, human sacrifice especially their own children. What do you think people deserve if they sacrifice children?
You do realize you are not hearing the story from the Canaanite side, right? You are taking the propaganda from one side and running with it. You believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction because you were told they did too? The victors told the story, not the victims. You need some great dehumanizing propaganda to destroy a people and take their freedom, land, and resources. If the stories in the book of Joshua, Exodus and Numbers are true, the early Israelites did a fantastic job. Of course they would not have been unique then or now. It's been the way of history.

Quote:
In the Old Testament there are laws and the penalty was very severe and with good reason but regradless those laws were meant for those Jews during that period and not now so we Christians are not bound by that because through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ we usher in a New Covenant in which those laws did not carry over but the Koran doesn't have that so they are still bound to those teachings of killing the infidel, that Jews and Christians are dogs and pigs etc.....
I know what the Quran says and how some Muslims live it out, but let's get back to that Bible, shall we? Isn't it a little odd to you that people in the Old Testament and those who are now Christians live under two different standards. You claim to have the "sacrifice" of Christ to escape severe penalties but those people back then had no such privilege.
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:19 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,718,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
You do realize you are not hearing the story from the Canaanite side, right? You are taking the propaganda from one side and running with it. You believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction because you were told they did too? The victors told the story, not the victims. You need some great dehumanizing propaganda to destroy a people and take their freedom, land, and resources. If the stories in the book of Joshua, Exodus and Numbers are true, the early Israelites did a fantastic job. Of course they would not have been unique then or now. It's been the way of history.
Cananite side, propaganda, Iraq??????????? what? It's in the bible and I have no idea how this is relevant but no I never believed Iraq had WMD.

Quote:
I know what the Quran says and how some Muslims live it out, but let's get back to that Bible, shall we? Isn't it a little odd to you that people in the Old Testament and those who are now Christians live under two different standards. You claim to have the "sacrifice" of Christ to escape severe penalties but those people back then had no such privilege.
No I don't and we don't live under two standards and we don't escape severe penalties since the law was not meant for Gentiles and Christ died for all including the Jews back then.
God made a special covenant with His people the Jews; for thousands of years they had prophets, they had teachers, they saw and experienced the miracles first hand, they were taught and saw the ways of God even the Cananites knew the Jewish God and they feared Him. When the Jews obeyed the covenant they were blessed more than any other as they rose out of obscurity in the days of King Saul, King David, King Solomon but when they violated that covenant the wrath of God came upon them and we saw it when they were captives in Babylon, slaves of Egypt and crushed under Roman rule.

For us Gentiles it is about faith. We didn't have first hand knowledge and experience the Jews had with God.

(John 20:29)

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:18 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Cananite side, propaganda, Iraq??????????? what? It's in the bible and I have no idea how this is relevant but no I never believed Iraq had WMD.
You don't see the comparison, huh? Ok, let me break it down for you.

You read a book called the Bible. The Old Testament, notably, tells you stories about a particular people from THEIR perspective. We rad of their interactions with other people and THEY tell us about these people. What we don't have (in a lot of cases) is what those people thought of them. In other words, you are only hearing one side of the story and it seems to be filled with propaganda. What would a Canaanite tell you today about Israelite soldiers descending upon their villages and butchering their women and children? What picture would THEY paint?

I mentioned, Iraq and WMD to show you how propaganda swayed many in this nation to justify war and mayhem. I was comparing the propaganda sold to us today to the propaganda told in the bible to justify genocide upon the Canaanites. Get it now?



Quote:
No I don't and we don't live under two standards and we don't escape severe penalties since the law was not meant for Gentiles and Christ died for all including the Jews back then.
God made a special covenant with His people the Jews; for thousands of years they had prophets, they had teachers, they saw and experienced the miracles first hand, they were taught and saw the ways of God even the Cananites knew the Jewish God and they feared Him. When the Jews obeyed the covenant they were blessed more than any other as they rose out of obscurity in the days of King Saul, King David, King Solomon but when they violated that covenant the wrath of God came upon them and we saw it when they were captives in Babylon, slaves of Egypt and crushed under Roman rule.

For us Gentiles it is about faith. We didn't have first hand knowledge and experience the Jews had with God.

(John 20:29)

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
[/quote]

When Martin Luther King died, did his death benefit the slaves before him or black folks AFTER him? Forgive my bluntness, but that is on of the dumber things I often hear from the Christian camp. When you follow that kind of theology it gets more ridiculous the further you go. Sorry.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:38 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,718,586 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
You don't see the comparison, huh? Ok, let me break it down for you.

You read a book called the Bible. The Old Testament, notably, tells you stories about a particular people from THEIR perspective. We rad of their interactions with other people and THEY tell us about these people. What we don't have (in a lot of cases) is what those people thought of them. In other words, you are only hearing one side of the story and it seems to be filled with propaganda. What would a Canaanite tell you today about Israelite soldiers descending upon their villages and butchering their women and children? What picture would THEY paint?
uh....huh.....you do realize you are talking to a Christian right? The bible is not some book but it is super natural, it has NEVER lied. Your premise is a worldly one. The question is either the bible is true or it isn't.

Quote:
I mentioned, Iraq and WMD to show you how propaganda swayed many in this nation to justify war and mayhem. I was comparing the propaganda sold to us today to the propaganda told in the bible to justify genocide upon the Canaanites. Get it now?
I didn't believe that Iraq had WMD but I did agree and support the war. People are not as dumb as you think. Saddam had and used them, no reason to think they didn't not to mention we saw what a bunch of men did with a couple aeroplanes. People just couldn't take that chance with WMD. It's easy to judge now but these decisions had to be made. The heart makes it a crime or immoral NOT the aftermath.

Quote:
When Martin Luther King died, did his death benefit the slaves before him or black folks AFTER him? Forgive my bluntness, but that is on of the dumber things I often hear from the Christian camp. When you follow that kind of theology it gets more ridiculous the further you go. Sorry.
Martin Luther King was human, things would have changed in this country regardless if Martin Luther King was born or not. We still have our sins and Jesus blood and sacrifice washed our sins away; when God looks at us He see Jesus and when He looks at Jesus He sees us. Jesus death benefits all; before and after.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,672,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I suppose it bugs you, but why? Have you researched? Have you picked up a Koran. Better yet answer this. If the foundation of a house is built on sand can the house survive the storm. Better yet the parable of the three little pigs. Which ones house wasnt blown down by the wolf? While I generalized the name of Allah, once you actually research the lies get deeper. Remember all the works of man will be tested by the fire. Those whose works last stand to gain while those who dont lose. Instead of using logic I suggest you dig deeper.
Perhaps then you are saying that Allah does, in fact, mean god when translated. So you are just stating that your religion holds up better (in your mind) than does theirs. Right?

Why bother even wasting time on such evaluations of validity when it is all conjecture in the first place. If it was not conjecture then you would have evidence and proof of a god. Which as I know is impossible to come up with.

I have read some portions of the Koran, the Torah, the Bible in its entirety.. and I see the same theme... religion.

Your premise is that the one group that has religion right (and you assume you are part of that group naturally) will win something and all others will lose.

Is this just one of God's games? What you are saying is that your god is a respecter of persons...

Perhaps you should read your holy book again:
Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

2 Chronicles 19:7 "Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe."

Aren't you offering God a bribe by shunning what you perceive to be the wrong religion? Your good deeds and correct prayers etc. are just a bribe for your reward/win!

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

Galatians 2:6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)-- well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

Ephesians 6:9 And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

Anyone who looks down upon a neighbor is showing a partiality that is not present in God...

Colossians 3:25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

The consequences of wrongdoing is the same for everyone. Israel, Islam, Christendom... All the same according to God wouldn't you say?

But by attacking other religions you show a weakness in your own faith, and obedience to your creator... IMO
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