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Old 02-13-2010, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
you're saying muslims as a whole fund terrorists and that they can stop the violence by not "funding" them.
and i am telling you that is incorrect. and armies and terrorist groups do not operate the same way.
Right. Armies rely on taxation and are conspicuous. Terrorist groups rely directly on community support in order to blend into the populace. They need homes to stay in, people to cook for them drivers to move them from one place to another. I completely understand that if a terrorist is holding a gun at you, you do what they say. But if the terrorists are based in a village, and you're truck driver, hey you don't deliver supplies to that village. You cut them off.

Quote:
how do you think the taliban came to power in afghanistan... local support? local businesses/government gave them the funds and weapons?
its a little more complicated than that. particularly in a country like afghanistan which was run by the maniacs themselves.. what did you expect those people to do? stand up against them and get killed?
If you truly believe the Islamic people can do NOTHING to stop Islamic terrorists, then they should also give up any hope of convincing anyone Islam is a religion of peace. The words lack the conviction of action.
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,986,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
try your math again.
My math is correct. 0.6% is equal to .006 or six thousandths, and six million is six thousandths of a billion. One million is one thousandth of a billion.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:36 PM
 
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^LOL i didnt mult by 100 to get the proper percentage when i divided
good man.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:49 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,891,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
Right. Armies rely on taxation and are conspicuous. Terrorist groups rely directly on community support in order to blend into the populace. They need homes to stay in, people to cook for them drivers to move them from one place to another. I completely understand that if a terrorist is holding a gun at you, you do what they say. But if the terrorists are based in a village, and you're truck driver, hey you don't deliver supplies to that village. You cut them off.
... are you not aware of these extremists having actual jobs all the while plotting and planning their attacks? or about funding from sources other than "the community?" i think you're making the assumption that all world terrorists live in small remote towns where they don't work or go out in public, or have access to stores etc, but hide in people's homes and families are their foster parents or something and they provide them the money to go out and buy explosive devices n what not.
but even if your scenario is true, lets say some isolated village in afghanistan.. odds are the taliban will have a strong hold here.. and afghanistan being the poverty stricken country that it is, if a person were to be fortunate enough to own a truck and use it in their job, i highly doubt they'd stop going to a village "suspected" of housing terrorists for the sake of having good public relations for their religion.. what do they care? they're trying to survive and provide for their families.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
If you truly believe the Islamic people can do NOTHING to stop Islamic terrorists, then they should also give up any hope of convincing anyone Islam is a religion of peace. The words lack the conviction of action.
the overwhelming majority of muslims arent terrorists, so technically speaking they would be right in their claims. unless you think you can make generalizations about over a billion people.. people do stupid things in the name of religion all the time. it wouldn't make sense during the crusades, inquisition or the conquest and forced conversion of natives in the american continent to say christianity/catholicism is a "religion of violence" and it doesnt apply here.
but i understand how people would come to that conclusion. i know i did on 9/11
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:24 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,292,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
... are you not aware of these extremists having actual jobs all the while plotting and planning their attacks? or about funding from sources other than "the community?" i think you're making the assumption that all world terrorists live in small remote towns where they don't work or go out in public, or have access to stores etc, but hide in people's homes and families are their foster parents or something and they provide them the money to go out and buy explosive devices n what not.
but even if your scenario is true, lets say some isolated village in afghanistan.. odds are the taliban will have a strong hold here.. and afghanistan being the poverty stricken country that it is, if a person were to be fortunate enough to own a truck and use it in their job, i highly doubt they'd stop going to a village "suspected" of housing terrorists for the sake of having good public relations for their religion.. what do they care? they're trying to survive and provide for their families.
That's exactly the problem then. They don't care that people are using their religion to commit violence, or at least they don't care enough to affect it in whatever ways they can in their daily lives. I don't expect anyone to quit their job or leave their family, but in their daily life, in their work, in their family, make terrorism and supporting terrorist unacceptable.

For many of the billions of Muslims they may never get the opportunity. But if they have the mindset, if they are willing to take an opportunity that presents itself, then why not? Except, as you point out, it's not that important to them. In which case, to us, the targets, that makes them somewhat complicit.

That's the problem. Even when Muslims who oppose violence have the opportunity to say or do something against Islamic terrorism, they don't. And that is disheartening.
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Old 02-14-2010, 01:48 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,211,639 times
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The second under Bin Laden said during an interview that all hostilities with the West would end if the West gave up two things: freedom of speech and the rights of females. Both of these characteristics are both embedded in modernity and can not be given up without giving up modernity and regressing to more primitive times. This the West will not do, and in fact, the Islam which follows this requirement of "giving up" will fail because it lacks the complexity needed to adapt. The problem with this Islam is that it can not come into modernity. The rest of the world is, and eventually all of the modernity of the West will be available everywhere and easily accessed-how are you goin to keep them down on the farm after they have seen Paris? is the ol' saying. To protect this brand of Islam, well, the whole world has to become primitive like it (the use of technology does not make a society modern-ity, the american Indian picked up on iron pots, guns, horses, and other such european techniques, but these did not essentially change these people into a modern-ity people). This so called war on terror is actually part of the process to shoe horn Islam into the 21 century or into the modern world-something that modernity is responsible for. Chrisianity needed to be domesticated and in fact its theological structure and developing theology actually allows it to adapt to the changing cultural paradigms (as Paul says, there is no male or female, bond or free, etc, in the kingdom of heaven-it is a short hop {time consuming} for a culture to adopt equality when it is essentially embedded in the primary and influential religion). Free speech is also inherent in christian theology and it wasn't long before that spilled over as well (the fact that the christian movement still wrestles with these does not annul the existence of such in its theology-the same with the secular culture; we have civil rights but haven't quite perfected it into reality as yet: but it is in the form of possibility, and for atheists and others who dream of a time when christianity will be gone are very mistaken and should not hold their breath, its adaptability and association with the rational process {see Hegel} will keep it around for a long, long time, and these hoping people's bones will have become dust before christianity vanishes). From what the radical Islamist said above, I assume these rights do not exist in Islam and are a threat to its existence (everyone seems to have a need to control access to the ear and vagina), at least in the extremist mode. Therefore, that brand of Islam is really a threat to modern life and is archaic and primitive (the adaptability of these thought structures is a sign of their use of the rational in a reflective way-the modern). If Islam can not develop theologically into an adapting religion (become reflectively rational), then it will always be in a contradiction that forces it to preserve itself in a non-changeable expression while the world around it continues to change and, hopefully, progress; it will always be hostile and not understand itself and, therefore, blame others and attempt to exclude the outside world-like livin in a holler deep in the red neck world. The world will always be larger than a singular religion, and if Islam does not develop a theology that allows for adaptation, then it will eventually pass away, but not before it satisfies its martyr complex and kills itself.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:13 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,891,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarmig View Post
That's exactly the problem then. They don't care that people are using their religion to commit violence, or at least they don't care enough to affect it in whatever ways they can in their daily lives. I don't expect anyone to quit their job or leave their family, but in their daily life, in their work, in their family, make terrorism and supporting terrorist unacceptable.

For many of the billions of Muslims they may never get the opportunity. But if they have the mindset, if they are willing to take an opportunity that presents itself, then why not? Except, as you point out, it's not that important to them. In which case, to us, the targets, that makes them somewhat complicit.

That's the problem. Even when Muslims who oppose violence have the opportunity to say or do something against Islamic terrorism, they don't. And that is disheartening.
1. when you're poverty stricken to the degree that these people are, your basic responsibilities are surviving from one day to the next; that some person thousands of miles away in denver thinks "islam is violence!" is the last of their concerns

2. examples of public denouncement:


washington post:
On Faith Panelists Blog: Muslims condemn violent acts at Fort Hood and offer condolences - Daisy Khan

huffington post:
Muslim, Arab Groups Condemn Fort Hood Shooting, Brace For Backlash

wash post again:
Prominent Muslim organizations condemn Fort Hood shootings - washingtonpost.com

myfox8 local news network, i think in NC:
Local Muslims Condemn Fort Hood Attack - WGHP (http://www.myfox8.com/wghp-local-muslims-condemn-hood-attack-091106,0,555523.story - broken link)

star tribnue, minneapolis
Muslim American Organizations Condemn Shooting Incident at Fort Hood | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/yourvoices/69378437.html - broken link)

politics daily:
American Muslim Groups Condemn Fort Hood Shootings -- Politics Daily

l.a times
American Muslims express fear, frustration after Ft. Hood shootings - Los Angeles Times - Page 2

news9.com of oklahoma
Oklahoma Muslims Condemn Ft. Hood Attack - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

^just a handful of the many occurrences of public denouncement from muslims following the fort hood. tragedy.. is this not what you claim they should be doing more publicly.. these are a few examples. tv, newspaper and internet outlets were used to denounce the acts that took place in fort hood. what else do they have to do?
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Old 02-14-2010, 05:35 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 3,372,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
Islam calls for

Two Ham and Swiss on Rye, extra pickles.
No, you have to hold the ham! Unless it is Hamas!
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Old 02-15-2010, 06:44 AM
 
2,893 posts, read 5,292,313 times
Reputation: 1978
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
1. when you're poverty stricken to the degree that these people are, your basic responsibilities are surviving from one day to the next; that some person thousands of miles away in denver thinks "islam is violence!" is the last of their concerns

2. examples of public denouncement:


washington post:
On Faith Panelists Blog: Muslims condemn violent acts at Fort Hood and offer condolences - Daisy Khan

huffington post:
Muslim, Arab Groups Condemn Fort Hood Shooting, Brace For Backlash

wash post again:
Prominent Muslim organizations condemn Fort Hood shootings - washingtonpost.com

myfox8 local news network, i think in NC:
Local Muslims Condemn Fort Hood Attack - WGHP (http://www.myfox8.com/wghp-local-muslims-condemn-hood-attack-091106,0,555523.story - broken link)

star tribnue, minneapolis
Muslim American Organizations Condemn Shooting Incident at Fort Hood | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/yourvoices/69378437.html - broken link)

politics daily:
American Muslim Groups Condemn Fort Hood Shootings -- Politics Daily

l.a times
American Muslims express fear, frustration after Ft. Hood shootings - Los Angeles Times - Page 2

news9.com of oklahoma
Oklahoma Muslims Condemn Ft. Hood Attack - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

^just a handful of the many occurrences of public denouncement from muslims following the fort hood. tragedy.. is this not what you claim they should be doing more publicly.. these are a few examples. tv, newspaper and internet outlets were used to denounce the acts that took place in fort hood. what else do they have to do?
Those are great starts! They need to spread it to the source and swell the ranks and raise their voices higher.

And here just a few posts ago you said they couldn't do anything, yet there they are, doing something! Congratulations, and thank you!

I do not know each Muslim individually. I do not know their stories, their problems, or their priorities. I cannot say for each what they should or should not do. All I can say is that when a Muslim comes here, where I am, and says to me, "Why do you have a problem with Islam, it is the Religion of PEACE!" I think I have good basis to question that statement. I think it is okay for me to ask, "What have you done to encourage peace, to discourage violence, regardless of your religion?" I think such questions are only right and just.

And then I read this morning where the Islamic leaders in Saudi Arabia are confiscating anything "red" to prevent people, even people who are not Muslims, from celebrating Valentine's Day. What the hell? That's not peaceful. Why aren't peaceful Muslims angry about that?

Saudi religious police see red on Valentine’s Day - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos
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Old 02-15-2010, 12:19 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,891,389 times
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the only thing muslims can do is denounce publicly as they already do, even if it doesnt really curtail fear of muslims/middle easterners. i think you're right though, they have to keep doing this or else people's fears and anger will turn into hatred towards them
as far as saudi arabia.. that's really close to a theocracy so theres no real flexibility there.. in places like those there are a lot of people who agree with very strict religious rules. but then you have countries like France who are trying to pass a bill to censor the internet and gives the country the right to "ban" any website they see fit.
im jus glad i live here tho
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