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Old 03-06-2010, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,837 posts, read 7,898,830 times
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You wont get much of a response from muslim men regarding this topic.

If you do, it will most likely be some type of nonsensical jibberish or major off-topic aversion. They are much more content just cutting and pasting islamic proverbs off of obscure sources that no one in the western world could ever understand, or even care to for that matter.

Hope you didn't set your sights too high for logical responses.
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:23 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smh1 View Post
Per Sharia, isn't it true that a woman's testimony is only worth half of a man's testimony?
yes , the testimony of women is only worth half of man's testomony in just one case ( financial transactions)

here is the verse which mentioned it
O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.) (Al-Baqarah 2:282)
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:45 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,186,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
yes , the testimony of women is only worth half of man's testomony in just one case ( financial transactions)

here is the verse which mentioned it
O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.) (Al-Baqarah 2:282)
Why do you think that is?

In my household, I (the wife) am the one to generally handle the finances, because a) I make more and b) I'm better at it.

Is there anything--any aspect--of Muslim life in which women are revered, respected, or held in high esteem? I hope there is...I cannot fathom, as a woman, living in a society where a) everything I do is suspect, or b) I am forced to feel ashamed MERELY by my gender.

Without demeaning men in any way, women are the givers of life...to our children, male and female. Many cultures, past and present, held that fact in high esteem. Forgive me if I'm missing anything, but I honestly do not see that esteem of women in Islam.
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Old 03-07-2010, 02:33 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
Why do you think that is?

In my household, I (the wife) am the one to generally handle the finances, because a) I make more and b) I'm better at it.
but in numerous societies, past and present, women generally may not be heavily involved with and experienced in business transactions. As such, they may not be completely aware of what is involved. Therefore, backing up of a woman's testimony by another woman who may be present establishes accuracy and, hence, justice.

The context of the passage relates to testimony on financial transactions which are often complex and laden with business jargon.
No reference is made to the inferiority or superiority of one gender's witness or the other's. The only reason given is to back up the female's witness and prevent unintended errors in the perception of the business deal.

Quote:
Is there anything--any aspect--of Muslim life in which women are revered, respected, or held in high esteem? I hope there is...I cannot fathom, as a woman, living in a society where a) everything I do is suspect, or b) I am forced to feel ashamed MERELY by my gender.
i know that some parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan as well as Arab countries, women are treated as second class citizens, not being able to go out in public as well as have the opportunity to do menial tasks like driving a car, however this is a cultural issue and not an Islamic issue
not all muslims like that nor islam teach that

Islam should not be blamed for the cultural opinion of a certain race of people in regards to their treatment of women.

for answering to your question , you should to know that :
In Islam, women have equal rights to that of men and have played a vital role throughout Islamic history. Women have the right to own property, the right to marry and initiate a divorce, the right to a personal identity, etc…Allah(swt) has made Himself clear in The Holy Qur’an on the subject of women;

"...I will not suffer the work of any worker from among you to be lost whether male or female, the one of you being from the other." Surah Al-Imran:195
"O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to take women as heritage against their will. Nor should you straiten them…." Surah Al-Nisa:19

Here the women have 3 degree higher than the men
Abu Huraira reported that a person came to Allah, 's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Who among the people is most deserving of a fine treatment from my hand? He said: Your mother. He again said: Then who (is the next one)? He said: Again it is your mother (who deserves the best treatment from you). He said: Then who (is the next one)? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Again, it is your mother. He (again) said: Then who? Thereupon he said: Then it is your father.
This is indeed a great honor that Allah has given to the woman
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: Avoid the seven noxious things. It was said (by the hearers): What are they, Messenger of Allah? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Associating anything with Allah, magic, killing of one whom God has declared inviolate without a just cause, consuming the property of an orphan, and consuming of usury, turning back when the army advances, and slandering chaste women who are believers, but unwary.
Here we see that one of the seven deadly sins is slandering chaste women. How come slandering men is not there? Slandering men indeed is a great sin however, the sin for slandering chaste women is worse. See the honor that God Almighty has given to Muslim women in order to preserve and maintain their honor.

you can read more from this site
On the Position of Women in Islam and in Islamic Society - by Dr. Hassan al-Turabi (http://www.islamfortoday.com/turabi01.htm - broken link)


Quote:
Without demeaning men in any way, women are the givers of life...to our children, male and female. Many cultures, past and present, held that fact in high esteem. Forgive me if I'm missing anything, but I honestly do not see that esteem of women in Islam.
do you know what i think !
Muslim women are saying they are happy and not being exploited, while non Muslim women answers that Muslim women are being exploited.
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Old 03-07-2010, 03:22 PM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,186,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
but in numerous societies, past and present, women generally may not be heavily involved with and experienced in business transactions. As such, they may not be completely aware of what is involved. Therefore, backing up of a woman's testimony by another woman who may be present establishes accuracy and, hence, justice.
Maybe it would surprise you to find out that many MEN are total incompetents with regard to finances.

Is it the contention of Islam that women are...dare I say it?...stupid?

I'd love to know what portion of the sex chromosome is responsible for mathematics ability. (I speak as one who has excelled beyond any man in my family--father, grandfather, uncles, ex- or current husband--and used to be a mathematics tutor in college)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
The context of the passage relates to testimony on financial transactions which are often complex and laden with business jargon.

No reference is made to the inferiority or superiority of one gender's witness or the other's. The only reason given is to back up the female's witness and prevent unintended errors in the perception of the business deal.
Pardon me, but unless there exists the SAME PROVISION for a male's testimony, it is profoundly SEXIST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i know that some parts of Afghanistan, Pakistan as well as Arab countries, women are treated as second class citizens, not being able to go out in public as well as have the opportunity to do menial tasks like driving a car, however this is a cultural issue and not an Islamic issue

not all muslims like that nor islam teach that
I know...and that is a very good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
Islam should not be blamed for the cultural opinion of a certain race of people in regards to their treatment of women.

for answering to your question , you should to know that :
In Islam, women have equal rights to that of men and have played a vital role throughout Islamic history. Women have the right to own property, the right to marry and initiate a divorce, the right to a personal identity, etc…Allah(swt) has made Himself clear in The Holy Qur’an on the subject of women;
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but is it not true that a woman does not fare on equal terms (distribution of money and assets) in the event of divorce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
Here the women have 3 degree higher than the men
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
Abu Huraira reported that a person came to Allah, 's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Who among the people is most deserving of a fine treatment from my hand? He said: Your mother. He again said: Then who (is the next one)? He said: Again it is your mother (who deserves the best treatment from you). He said: Then who (is the next one)? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Again, it is your mother. He (again) said: Then who? Thereupon he said: Then it is your father.
This is indeed a great honor that Allah has given to the woman
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: Avoid the seven noxious things. It was said (by the hearers): What are they, Messenger of Allah? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Associating anything with Allah, magic, killing of one whom God has declared inviolate without a just cause, consuming the property of an orphan, and consuming of usury, turning back when the army advances, and slandering chaste women who are believers, but unwary.
Here we see that one of the seven deadly sins is slandering chaste women. How come slandering men is not there? Slandering men indeed is a great sin however, the sin for slandering chaste women is worse. See the honor that God Almighty has given to Muslim women in order to preserve and maintain their honor.

you can read more from this site
On the Position of Women in Islam and in Islamic Society - by Dr. Hassan al-Turabi (http://www.islamfortoday.com/turabi01.htm - broken link)


do you know what i think !
Muslim women are saying they are happy and not being exploited, while non Muslim women answers that Muslim women are being exploited.
While it is definitely true that many Muslim women are indeed happy and content, there ARE some who are not. And no, I do not only mean some American Muslim women. There are groups in many countries, including Canada and Malaysia, that have been fighting a seemingly endless fight to win more rights for Muslim women. I applaud that effort...to me, it doesn't really matter that it happens to be about Muslim women.

I really thank you for your insights, it has been a pleasure.

Last edited by rayneinspain; 03-07-2010 at 03:43 PM..
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:18 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
Maybe it would surprise you to find out that many MEN are total incompetents with regard to finances.
surely you are right

Quote:
Is it the contention of Islam that women are...dare I say it?...stupid?
nooooooooooooooo
the distinction is far from being due to any belief in a deficiency of the woman's intelligence and integrity. It is rather due to her natural disposition and her special inclinations which may exclude her involvement in such matters while being focused on motherhood or the household. Hence, it is most likely to be a kind of characteristic inattention on her part when it comes to handling these matters. For this reason, Allah commands creditors if they want to verify the value of debt to seek the testimony of two men or one man and two women. The Qur'an puts it unambiguously
(so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.) (Al-Baqarah 2:282)

Quote:
I'd love to know what portion of the sex chromosome is responsible for mathematics ability. (I speak as one who has excelled beyond any man in my family--father, grandfather, uncles, ex- or current husband--and used to be a mathematics tutor in college)
quran revealed for all muslims ( past "1500 years ago " and present ) , not for only those women who have good mathematics ability in 20's century in some countries .
anyway , i answered that question in the above part



Quote:
Pardon me, but unless there exists the SAME PROVISION for a male's testimony, it is profoundly SEXIST.
man is the person solely responsible for the complete maintenance of his wife, his family and any other needy relations. It is his duty by Law to assume all financial responsibilities and maintain his dependents adequately. It is also his duty to contribute financially to all good causes in his society. All financial burdens are borne by him alone.
can you consider it profoundly sexist either



Again, woman usually , is not so experienced in practical life as man.
( and don't bring for me odd cases , you are special woman , it's not the norm)
This lack of experience may cause a loss to any party in a given contract. So the Law requires that at least two women should bear witness with one man. if a woman of the witness forgets something, the other one would remind her. Or if she makes an error, due to lack of experience, the other would help to correct her. This is a precautionary measure to guarantee honest transactions and proper dealings between people. In fact, it gives woman a role to play in civil life and helps to establish justice. At any rate, lack of experience in civil life does not necessarily mean that women is inferior to man in her status. Every human being lacks one thing or another, yet no one questions their human status


Quote:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but is it not true that a woman does not fare on equal terms (distribution of money and assets) in the event of divorce?
i don't understand the question , which money in the event of divorce are you talking about ?



Quote:
While it is definitely true that many Muslim women are indeed happy and content, there ARE some who are not. And no, I do not only mean some American Muslim women. There are groups in many countries, including Canada and Malaysia, that have been fighting a seemingly endless fight to win more rights for Muslim women. I applaud that effort...to me, it doesn't really matter that it happens to be about Muslim women.
such groups are exist in evey palce , every field and every culture .
what about the precentage of those groups with reference to entire muslim women in the world ?
why you always focus on those groups and deal with them as if they represent entire muslims women or as if they hold the right stance

Quote:
I really thank you for your insights, it has been a pleasure.
you are wellcome
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:01 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,186,408 times
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Moderator cut: quoted post was deleted


I'm still trying to digest that I'm somehow an "Odd" woman simply because I'm proficient in MATH and FINANCES.

I posit that I'm only "Odd" to anyone who is taught to think that way...just as women are only seen to be "unclean" (at all/during menses) by those who are taught to think THAT way...and just as women will continue to be excluded from Mosque areas only by those who were taught that that particular practice is acceptable and an honest interpretation of the Quran.

Elwill, I am in no way "odd". I'm hardly the only Western woman who manages their household finances, knows higher mathematics, and disagrees with the superstitious views on menstruation that permeate Islam.

I don't think it's a cultural difference on its own...I think that Islam shaped many societies to mold their women into subservient and/or lesser roles, including staying away from household finances (which is why I appear so "odd" to you).

Sometimes, a small change in perception can elevate a people to wonderful, new accomplishments.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-09-2010 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:37 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
..Moderator cut: edit

I'm still trying to digest that I'm somehow an "Odd" woman simply because I'm proficient in MATH and FINANCES.

I posit that I'm only "Odd" to anyone who is taught to think that way...just as women are only seen to be "unclean" (at all/during menses) by those who are taught to think THAT way...and just as women will continue to be excluded from Mosque areas only by those who were taught that that particular practice is acceptable and an honest interpretation of the Quran.

Elwill, I am in no way "odd". I'm hardly the only Western woman who manages their household finances, knows higher mathematics, and disagrees with the superstitious views on menstruation that permeate Islam.

I don't think it's a cultural difference on its own...I think that Islam shaped many societies to mold their women into subservient and/or lesser roles, including staying away from household finances (which is why I appear so "odd" to you).

Sometimes, a small change in perception can elevate a people to wonderful, new accomplishments.
i'm sorry , rayneinspain
i didn't mean any negative view by saying odd about you , i just meant that you are special

it wasn't the situation since 1500 years untill last century to find women participate in such buisnesses ( untill now i think in most of the countries )

i don't need to reprat my view again , i think that i made it clear enough

i'm sorry if i offended you , i really didn't mean it atall

peace

Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-09-2010 at 07:31 AM..
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:44 AM
 
Location: East Cleveland
217 posts, read 611,674 times
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i personally have no problem with it...but it can be a distraction when opposite sexes are in such close quarters....the idea is that your totally attentive to the khtub or sermon thats going on...and honestly i've been to churches, and it seems alot of the discourse and gossip comes from the mo\ingles of males in females when at church when they need to be at full attention to the sermon....men are gonna be men and women are gfonna be women, and were all sexual beings..its hard to concentrate on your prayers when you have a person you highly desire standing next to you...but at the sametime, i think they should be able to atleast be in the same room, so they can get the full scope of the message...the whole thing of putting women in another room is kinda ridiculous to me...
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:52 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,186,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
i personally have no problem with it...but it can be a distraction when opposite sexes are in such close quarters....the idea is that your totally attentive to the khtub or sermon thats going on...and honestly i've been to churches, and it seems alot of the discourse and gossip comes from the mo\ingles of males in females when at church when they need to be at full attention to the sermon....men are gonna be men and women are gfonna be women, and were all sexual beings..its hard to concentrate on your prayers when you have a person you highly desire standing next to you...but at the sametime, i think they should be able to atleast be in the same room, so they can get the full scope of the message...the whole thing of putting women in another room is kinda ridiculous to me...
In worship services I've attended (Lutheran growing up, pagan as an adult), most of the mingling/chatting I've witnessed and participated in was male/male and female/female.

For the record, I can definitely say that I've never experienced sexual thoughts interfering with services...am I the only one who finds that concept way 'off'?
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