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Old 03-08-2010, 11:29 AM
 
310 posts, read 506,077 times
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Samir_Abdul that is good to hear you are not opposed to women worshipping with the men. I think in the next few decades it's going to be important for Islam to take a closer look at how it treats women and adjust it to a better standard of equality. It won't happen overnight but hopefully it will happen. The women in the original article obviously love their religion, but merely believe parts of it are being misinterpreted in order to keep Muslim women secondary to the men.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:26 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,042,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
In worship services I've attended (Lutheran growing up, pagan as an adult), most of the mingling/chatting I've witnessed and participated in was male/male and female/female.

For the record, I can definitely say that I've never experienced sexual thoughts interfering with services...am I the only one who finds that concept way 'off'?
in the matter if you wanna to see it in my eyes , look to this picture and imagine with me how it will look like when women merged with men in this

and tell me as a woman (yourself ) will you feel comfortable being in such situation among men ?

http://www.jannah.org/articles/prayingny.jpg (broken link)

we prays in rows like that , feet adjacent to feet and shoulder adjacent to shoulder


was that the situation in the worship services you have attended ?


ayneinspain , thiere is no problem in islam for women to share the men in any kind of worship , but during salat it must to be in raws as in the picture

in Haj ( do you know the haj in islam ? ) it kind of worship where we perform in mekkah
whatever , men and women are not separated in performing these rituals .
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Old 03-09-2010, 06:54 AM
 
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I have no problem doing a host of different activities next to someone of the opposite sex because I am capable of treating others as human beings and not sex objects. I can sit and meditate right next to others and not have a thought of them cross my mind. Same goes for yoga and other exercise classes where things can be bouncing around. I can't think of a situation LESS sexy than a religious service. It is shameful how Muslim women are treated as barely more than semi-intelligent subhumans and Muslim men keep perpetuating it.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:10 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,192,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvenie View Post
I have no problem doing a host of different activities next to someone of the opposite sex because I am capable of treating others as human beings and not sex objects. I can sit and meditate right next to others and not have a thought of them cross my mind. Same goes for yoga and other exercise classes where things can be bouncing around. I can't think of a situation LESS sexy than a religious service. It is shameful how Muslim women are treated as barely more than semi-intelligent subhumans and Muslim men keep perpetuating it.
^^Elwill, I have to emphatically agree with Balvenie. (btw, your picture link is not working)

In a society where there is an exaggerated separation of the sexes and over-emphasis on the 'evils' of sexuality, the result tends to be inappropriate sexual tension in NON-sexual environments....like prayer services.

Muslim society puts so much into regulating sexuality that it is ignoring the fact that repression tends to breed unwanted behavior, like the rape of young females (who tend to be further victimized for the simple fact that they were sexually abused!), domestic violence/honor killings, and the completely hysterical reaction of covering their women from head to toe. "It's bad/evil/sinful...so let's cover it up!"

I've seen a number of documentaries about young Muslims in the past few years--many of them see the ludicrous, outdated nature of their society and want it to change.

Last edited by rayneinspain; 03-09-2010 at 08:25 AM..
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:41 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,042,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
^^Elwill, I have to emphatically agree with Balvenie. (btw, your picture link is not working)
here is the picture again ,

Islam Bursting on American Scene


can you please answer my questions again ?

tell me as a woman (yourself ) will you feel comfortable being in such situation among men ?

if you have noproblem being in such situation , what about muslims women ? did you tried to ask them ?

was that the same situation in the worship services you have attended ?

what is your comment when you know that
in Hajj ( kind of worship where we perform in mekkah ) men and women are not separated in performing it .


in which philosophy or science or relegion , the separation between male and female in prayer means disrespect for women ?
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:46 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,042,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvenie View Post
I have no problem doing a host of different activities next to someone of the opposite sex because I am capable of treating others as human beings and not sex objects. I can sit and meditate right next to others and not have a thought of them cross my mind. Same goes for yoga and other exercise classes where things can be bouncing around. I can't think of a situation LESS sexy than a religious service. It is shameful how Muslim women are treated as barely more than semi-intelligent subhumans and Muslim men keep perpetuating it.
you know , i confess that some males muslims may treat women as sex object .
islam protect women from such people by separating them in the prayer
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:24 AM
 
310 posts, read 506,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
you know , i confess that some males muslims may treat women as sex object .
islam protect women from such people by separating them in the prayer
Oh right. Lock away the women because you can't control yourself. That's ass-backwards. You are punishing the victim for your lack of control, and you can't even comprehend how barbaric it is.

How about if the women and men traded places and the women were in control and you men were subjected to being hidden away, not trusted to be able to "remember" things, forced to wear concealing clothing, blamed when someone perpetrated a crime against you, forced to enter the mosque by the back door, and treated as you treat women now. Would you like and embrace being a second class citizen?
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,937 posts, read 31,833,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
you know , i confess that some males muslims may treat women as sex object .
islam protect women from such people by separating them in the prayer
Do Muslim men have so little control that women are in danger of being attacked during prayer? You can't be serious. Why don't you just lock the women up....No, wait, you already do that.
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,042,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvenie View Post
Oh right. Lock away the women because you can't control yourself. That's ass-backwards. You are punishing the victim for your lack of control, and you can't even comprehend how barbaric it is.
actually , i can't comperhend how is it barbaric that women prays in rows behind men , can you enlighten me ?
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:49 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,192,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
here is the picture again ,

Islam Bursting on American Scene


can you please answer my questions again ?

tell me as a woman (yourself ) will you feel comfortable being in such situation among men ?
I would have absolutely no problem with that. In America (and many other countries), gym class is co-ed...with boys and girls performing exercises (touching toes, stretching, etc.) and playing sports while wearing half the clothing in the picture above. For adults, the same thing occurs in public gyms.

Edit: There is also something to be said for not acting like a 'potential victim'. Predators can sense fear and insecurity, which is why I instill the message in my own daughter to look out for herself, use common sense and caution, and to never allow others to mistreat her, even in school or with friends.

Where there is no societal-wide repression or separation of the sexes, males and females are able to go about their day in mixed company without fear of losing control sexually. In every society, Muslim and non-Muslim, there will be those individuals who are mentally unwell and do not adhere (or recognize) the standards of decent conduct and will not control themselves...but the fear of the few should not be cause to repress an entire gender. Teach females to protect themselves (not by head-to-toe cover), and teach males they can do their part in never tolerating the victimization of women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
if you have noproblem being in such situation , what about muslims women ? did you tried to ask them ?
I have not had the pleasure or opportunity to speak directly to Muslim women...and I wish I could do so, especially the ones who, like in the OP, seek to change and reform prayer services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
was that the same situation in the worship services you have attended ?
Lutheran services, as a child, were in much closer contact than in your picture...and pagan ones (outside, in circle) were extremely close; so close, in fact, that we did not notice the cold outside in late October. My children were with me and did not mind, either (son and daughter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
what is your comment when you know that
in Hajj ( kind of worship where we perform in mekkah ) men and women are not separated in performing it .
I just did some reading about Hajj--I think it's wonderful that there is no separation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
in which philosophy or science or relegion , the separation between male and female in prayer means disrespect for women ?
I think it can...only because of the negative connotation (basically treating females in a different way out of a fear that males cannot control themselves--in a place of worship). The fact that some women (and men) are beginning to object may be a hint that change may be on the horizon.

Change does not have to be a bad thing.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
actually , i can't comperhend how is it barbaric that women prays in rows behind men , can you enlighten me ?
Barbaric or not, I do find it rather odd that the same fears haven't occurred about women looking at men's behinds.

Men are not the only ones capable of sexual thoughts.

Last edited by rayneinspain; 03-09-2010 at 11:00 AM..
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