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Old 03-09-2010, 11:09 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
I would have absolutely no problem with that. In America (and many other countries), gym class is co-ed...with boys and girls performing exercises (touching toes, stretching, etc.) and playing sports while wearing half the clothing in the picture above. For adults, the same thing occurs in public gyms.

Edit: There is also something to be said for not acting like a 'potential victim'. Predators can sense fear and insecurity, which is why I instill the message in my own daughter to look out for herself, use common sense and caution, and to never allow others to mistreat her, even in school or with friends.

Where there is no societal-wide repression or separation of the sexes, males and females are able to go about their day in mixed company without fear of losing control sexually. In every society, Muslim and non-Muslim, there will be those individuals who are mentally unwell and do not adhere (or recognize) the standards of decent conduct and will not control themselves...but the fear of the few should not be cause to repress an entire gender. Teach females to protect themselves (not by head-to-toe cover), and teach males they can do their part in never tolerating the victimization of women.



I have not had the pleasure or opportunity to speak directly to Muslim women...and I wish I could do so, especially the ones who, like in the OP, seek to change and reform prayer services.



Lutheran services, as a child, were in much closer contact than in your picture...and pagan ones (outside, in circle) were extremely close; so close, in fact, that we did not notice the cold outside in late October. My children were with me and did not mind, either (son and daughter).



I just did some reading about Hajj--I think it's wonderful that there is no separation.



I think it can...only because of the negative connotation (basically treating females in a different way out of a fear that males cannot control themselves--in a place of worship). The fact that some women (and men) are beginning to object may be a hint that change may be on the horizon.

Change does not have to be a bad thing.

EDIT:



Barbaric or not, I do find it rather odd that the same fears haven't occurred about women looking at men's behinds.

Men are not the only ones capable of sexual thoughts.
thank you for you thoughts
i think we allready reached the end of the argument , may be resuming in the argument will become boring

anyway , i hope you will find muslim women to talking with
may be her voice will be more convincing

i just wanna to emphasize that in islam women pray separately for reasons of modesty not for reasons of disrespecting

peace
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: East Cleveland
217 posts, read 612,336 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
In worship services I've attended (Lutheran growing up, pagan as an adult), most of the mingling/chatting I've witnessed and participated in was male/male and female/female.

For the record, I can definitely say that I've never experienced sexual thoughts interfering with services...am I the only one who finds that concept way 'off'?
im not sure of your age....but i know with alot of this youger generation i see, they come from church and the only thing i hear them conversating about is "what this girl had on" how pretty sister mary's daughter is", and which female needs to wear stockings because of the hair on their legs....this might not be aproblem for the older crowd, but i know it is with youger generation...and especially when your at your peak of sexual maturity, its possible to have sexual thoughts while around the opposite sex even while at services..especially when you got cleaveage and thighs look at you from every angle, as a man its pretty hard not to lose focus on the real focus at hand which is worship....

and also look at the many times preachers have been caugt in affairs with church memebers, and also church members who are married who have relations outside of thier marriage..you see it on tv alot...this rarely ever happens in masjids because were kept seperate....

Last edited by Samir_Abdul; 03-09-2010 at 11:35 AM.. Reason: add a sentence on
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:33 AM
 
Location: East Cleveland
217 posts, read 612,336 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvenie View Post
I have no problem doing a host of different activities next to someone of the opposite sex because I am capable of treating others as human beings and not sex objects. I can sit and meditate right next to others and not have a thought of them cross my mind. Same goes for yoga and other exercise classes where things can be bouncing around. I can't think of a situation LESS sexy than a religious service. It is shameful how Muslim women are treated as barely more than semi-intelligent subhumans and Muslim men keep perpetuating it.
im guessing your a women so im sure its way easier for a women to control there hormones...but something wired in a mans DNA makes him a little more secptable to images and visuals objects...any honest man can tell you it doesnt take much exposed skin to peak a mans sexual impules...i do think it could be good to let men and women worship together because it would force men and women, to gain more control over are sexual desires..so that really could be a good thing at bringig us closer to complete submission...also if i had a wife, i would love to pray along side her, because i think that would give a very strong spirtual bond....those who pray toghether do hold some sort of bond with each other...which to me is the real true meaning of the ummah, "one complete harmonious brother and sisterhood....
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:37 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,190,939 times
Reputation: 4536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
im not sure of your age....but i know with alot of this youger generation i see, they come from church and the only thing i hear them conversating about is "what this girl had on" how pretty sister mary's daughter is", and which female needs to wear stockings because of the hair on their legs....this might not be aproblem for the older crowd, but i know it is with youger generation...and especially when your at your peak of sexual maturity, its possible to have sexual thoughts while around the opposite sex even while at services..especially when you got cleaveage and thighs look at you from every angle, as a man its pretty hard not to lose focus on the real focus at hand which is worship....
I'm 45.

Even as a teen, we did not dress to expose cleavage (and neither does my 16 yr old daughter now). As for the comments you've heard, let's face it, girls are pretty mean and caught up about looks, especially at that age.

Moreover, teens WILL have sexual thoughts...it's a part of growing up and perfectly natural. What you teach them about appropriate behavior--and how not to talk about the other gender, especially--is a parent's responsibility.

I just have to say that the way you describe the male mind--particularly in a place of worship--may be saying more about that faith and/or culture (or yourself ) than it does the rest of the world. I've always noticed subtlety, and I would have quickly clued into any lascivious looks by men toward me or other females in either the Lutheran church or the ATC pagan circle I've attended.
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:44 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,190,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
im guessing your a women so im sure its way easier for a women to control there hormones...but something wired in a mans DNA makes him a little more secptable to images and visuals objects...any honest man can tell you it doesnt take much exposed skin to peak a mans sexual impules...
Perhaps you are completely unaware of the numerous cultures across the globe that exist just fine with both sexes exposing the majority of their bodies.

How can that be?

Maybe....because they don't repress and villify females. Repression does sexualize, by the way--people tend to obsess about that which is "forbidden".

I read so much about Muslim women "fearing the gaze of men", and men worried about "sexual thoughts of desire"...so much fear.

Too much fear is harmful.

Now, let's discuss impulses.

There are many impulses I choose not to give into on a daily basis: kicking my cat, driving on the wrong side of the road, setting fire to my house clutter, or screaming at people in public who are rude.

It seems to me that people can be taught which impulses they should act out on, and which ones are inappropriate...AND EXPECT THEM TO LIVE ACCORDINGLY.

Are Muslim men somehow incapable of controlling themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
i do think it could be good to let men and women worship together because it would force men and women, to gain more control over are sexual desires..so that really could be a good thing at bringig us closer to complete submission...also if i had a wife, i would love to pray along side her, because i think that would give a very strong spirtual bond....those who pray toghether do hold some sort of bond with each other...which to me is the real true meaning of the ummah, "one complete harmonious brother and sisterhood....
THAT'S what I'm talking about!

And...you're exactly right.

Last edited by rayneinspain; 03-09-2010 at 11:53 AM..
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:48 AM
 
310 posts, read 505,788 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
im guessing your a women so im sure its way easier for a women to control there hormones...but something wired in a mans DNA makes him a little more secptable to images and visuals objects...any honest man can tell you it doesnt take much exposed skin to peak a mans sexual impules...i do think it could be good to let men and women worship together because it would force men and women, to gain more control over are sexual desires..so that really could be a good thing at bringig us closer to complete submission...also if i had a wife, i would love to pray along side her, because i think that would give a very strong spirtual bond....those who pray toghether do hold some sort of bond with each other...which to me is the real true meaning of the ummah, "one complete harmonious brother and sisterhood....
Well you'd be guessing wrong then, and I would never dream of treating women in that manner. It flabbergasts me to think that punishing the
victim is considered acceptable.

As for you elwill, you already cover your women in shapeless ugly clothes so the excuse that someone might see something sexy if a woman prays in the same room as a man is invalid.
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: East Cleveland
217 posts, read 612,336 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
Perhaps you are completely unaware of the numerous cultures across the globe that exist just fine with both sexes exposing the majority of their bodies.

How can that be?

Maybe....because they don't repress and villify females. Repression does sexualize, by the way--people tend to obsess about that which is "forbidden".

I read so much about Muslim women "fearing the gaze of men", and men worried about "sexual thoughts of desire"...so much fear.

Too much fear is harmful.

Now, let's discuss impulses.

There are many impulses I choose not to give into on a daily basis: kicking my cat, driving on the wrong side of the road, setting fire to my house clutter, or screaming at people in public who are rude.

It seems to me that people can be taught which impulses they should act out on, and which ones are inappropriate...AND EXPECT THEM TO LIVE ACCORDINGLY.

Are Muslim men somehow incapable of controlling themselves?



THAT'S what I'm talking about!

And...you're exactly right.
your talking about cultures who have no idea of nudity..your not talking about people who get up and throw on clothes everyday...and lets be real we got catholic bishops sleeping with little boys, so lets not act like christian men can control their hormonmes any better, the diffrence is were admit are short commings...yopur turning this into a christian/muslim thing, because you came in the argument with a closed mind...why do you think buddihst monks attain such high levels of spirtuality, because of the complete solitude of thier life...that way they can devote they're life to their prayers and works,..and people of high levels in many religions live like this, sheiks, rabbi's especially those of kybalistic backrounds, its all about total devotion....


and to answer balvenie, what did i advocate treating women like??? i said i think they should be able to pray along besides us...how am i blaming a women...

at the sametime as far as you in a house of worship with your cleavege out, not only are you disrespecting your lord, but its a distraction to the whole congregation, men and women....i also believe men should have to hold the kids instead of always delegating that authority...



and my brother, your not going to honestly tell me as a straight male your mind has never lusted for what your eyes saw....
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Old 03-10-2010, 10:19 AM
 
55 posts, read 115,390 times
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Okey here is the Thing.

Only while Offering the Prayers ( namaz ) in the Mosque Men and Women are not allowed to be togeather. (Reason : is still being discussed in this forum.)

However in other religious places Eg : where they go to Macca, over there all men and women are togeather. there are many other religious places like Graves of Muslim Saints and Graves of their Holy people where both the men and women are togeather.

So I am sure the reason is not related to the Erotic thoughts not being able to be controled by Muslim Man or Women during Prayers in the Mosque !!!


The reason should be something else....
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Old 03-10-2010, 10:37 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,409 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillMePlzzzzz View Post
Okey here is the Thing.

Only while Offering the Prayers ( namaz ) in the Mosque Men and Women are not allowed to be togeather. (Reason : is still being discussed in this forum.)

However in other religious places Eg : where they go to Macca, over there all men and women are togeather. there are many other religious places like Graves of Muslim Saints and Graves of their Holy people where both the men and women are togeather.

So I am sure the reason is not related to the Erotic thoughts not being able to be controled by Muslim Man or Women during Prayers in the Mosque !!!


The reason should be something else....
can we share jews in the discussion , i think they have the same rule in thier relegion


The second thing that must be understood is the separation of men and women during prayer. According to Jewish Law, men and women must be separated during prayer, usually by a wall or curtain called a mechitzah or by placing women in a second floor balcony. There are two reasons for this: first, your mind is supposed to be on prayer, not on the pretty girl praying near you. Second, many pagan religious ceremonies at the time Judaism was founded involved sexual activity and orgies, and the separation prevents or at least discourages this. Interestingly, although men should not be able to see women during prayer, women are permitted to see men during prayer. This seems to reflect the opinion that women are better able to concentrate on prayer with an attractive member of the opposite sex visible.
Judaism 101: The Role of Women
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:08 PM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,190,939 times
Reputation: 4536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
your talking about cultures who have no idea of nudity..your not talking about people who get up and throw on clothes everyday...and lets be real we got catholic bishops sleeping with little boys, so lets not act like christian men can control their hormonmes any better, the diffrence is were admit are short commings...yopur turning this into a christian/muslim thing, because you came in the argument with a closed mind...why do you think buddihst monks attain such high levels of spirtuality, because of the complete solitude of thier life...that way they can devote they're life to their prayers and works,..and people of high levels in many religions live like this, sheiks, rabbi's especially those of kybalistic backrounds, its all about total devotion....
Whoa, whoa, let's stop the backhanded attacks, ok? I'm not here to start a fight, and if you had really read my post, you would see that...and apologize. I'm not your enemy.

It was never my intention to pit christian against muslim...doing so is only in your own head. And if nothing else, let's also stop putting words in other people's mouths.

I do NOT appreciate it.

I am a pagan...to me, organized religions of all sorts have major problems, NOT JUST ISLAM.

I'm not closed-minded, which your post DOES describe. My main issue in this thread is the treatment of women in a particular religion, in this case Islam. If it was a thread about women in christianity, I'd be vocal about THAT, too.

Are you female? If not, your male-centric view of Islam is hardly objective, IMO.

So please...take a breath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
and my brother, your not going to honestly tell me as a straight male your mind has never lusted for what your eyes saw....
***heavy sigh***

Honestly, the paranoia over THOUGHTS is exactly why I left organized religion and never looked back.
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