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Old 03-10-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,264,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
and my brother, your not going to honestly tell me as a straight male your mind has never lusted for what your eyes saw....
Rayne the straight male...LOL

And what if someone has lusted...so what? We are humans and it is what we do. What regular guy hasn't seen a pretty girl and the thought of how she might be in bed crossed his mind, even be it ever so fleeting? Women do it as well...so what?

There's this thing called self-control. It works...no really. I do not need a woman to cover herself up or be out of her presence to keep from obsessing about sex. This is what happens with more repressive philosophies, cultures and religions. Sex becomes an obsession and must be avoided at all costs. People who have come to terms with human sexuality don't seem to have the same obsession with it.

Self-control works for not just sex, but also alcohol consumption, tobacco use and all those other "Thou Shalt Nots" that exist in the various religions.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samir_Abdul View Post
at the sametime as far as you in a house of worship with your cleavege out, not only are you disrespecting your lord, but its a distraction to the whole congregation, men and women....
Exactly whose cleavage are we talking about? I have yet to attend ANY religious service where breasts were exposed. At pagan services, we were all wearing COATS because of the cold temperatures!

If the mere shape/outline offends you, in any environment...wow, I just can't fathom being that afraid of the human body, I really can't.

Where shame exists, obsession will follow.
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Old 03-10-2010, 11:51 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
Rayne the straight male...LOL

And what if someone has lusted...so what? We are humans and it is what we do. What regular guy hasn't seen a pretty girl and the thought of how she might be in bed crossed his mind, even be it ever so fleeting? Women do it as well...so what?
may be you are close now to understnad us
1- as you said , we are humans , and humans can be lusted in any time and in any place although inside the mosque and during prayer

2- another fact you said , it's ever so fleeting , i don't deny .
but it dosn't mattar if it was so fleeting or not , the problem is that it may happen during the prayer . can you remember when we said that separation will help everyone to concentrate in his prayer !

you can consider the situation as a preventive action .

the level of modesty is differ from place to place , in some places it's modest to be naked , in others it's modest to wear bickini , and in others it's modest to become a mother out of marriage in others it's modest to cover your head . every place have it's laws which should to be respected . you can in your society play in Gym by bickini but you can't enter church or mosque by bikini and offcourse some hotels either or resturant have it's laws , and offcourse it dosn't mean that such resturants have policy to disrespect women , it's actually respect for it's customers

we need to realize that we are differ , if muslims are in higher level of modesty then you have no right to accuse us that we limited the freedom of women . it's just what we used to be .
from our view (men and women) , you are not in better situation being have what you call freedom of women in your society
(my advice : search on youtube and see what women themselfs says about hijab and how happy they are with it )

Quote:
There's this thing called self-control. It works...no really. I do not need a woman to cover herself up or be out of her presence to keep from obsessing about sex. This is what happens with more repressive philosophies, cultures and religions. Sex becomes an obsession and must be avoided at all costs. People who have come to terms with human sexuality don't seem to have the same obsession with it.
although there are some countries imposes woman to cover herself (most of coutries havn't this restriction) , but actually most of women do it willingly without any pressure

Quote:
Self-control works for not just sex, but also alcohol consumption, tobacco use and all those other "Thou Shalt Nots" that exist in the various religions.
offcourse , self control works . but not with everyone , can you deny ?
i confess that theire are probability to find someone who is muslim and have a problem with this self-control thing
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,994,349 times
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Self-control only fails when one doesn't have enough of it. A religion with such rules is degrading to people because it is assumed that the people are not capable of managing their own lives (of which self-control is a necessary part). In such a system, one is treated like a ill-behaved child with a supernatural father figure to punish him.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:22 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Self-control only fails when one doesn't have enough of it. A religion with such rules is degrading to people because it is assumed that the people are not capable of managing their own lives (of which self-control is a necessary part). In such a system, one is treated like a ill-behaved child with a supernatural father figure to punish him.
no childrens like to live by laws inside a house or inside a schools
is that mean when parents set some of rules upon thier children that they disgraded them or that they love them and want the best for them ?

Last edited by elwill; 03-12-2010 at 01:59 AM..
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:05 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,188,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
no, childrens like to live by laws inside a house or inside a schools
is that mean when parents set some of rules upon thier children that they disgraded them or that they love them and want the best for them ?
(fixed the punctuation in the first line)

I think we may be getting close to something....


Elwill, are you suggesting that Allah sees every Muslim, regardless of their age, as a helpless child, incapable of even the slightest ounce of restraint or mature self-control?

Last edited by rayneinspain; 03-12-2010 at 09:22 AM..
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:34 AM
 
310 posts, read 505,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
no childrens like to live by laws inside a house or inside a schools
is that mean when parents set some of rules upon thier children that they disgraded them or that they love them and want the best for them ?
You just made his point for him!!! Adults are NOT children and treating them as if they have no self control is ridiculous.
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,264,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
although there are some countries imposes woman to cover herself (most of coutries havn't this restriction) , but actually most of women do it willingly without any pressure
And that is fine within the bounds of cultural norms, especially if it is the individual's choice. Even in my culture, only men are permitted to sit at the drum. Women stand behind the men at the drum and sing. Women who feel they should sit at the drum are looked at with disapproval by the other women of the tribe. It is not a subjugation thing but rather just what we do. I get what you are saying elwill. The problem comes when a religion says to the members of another culture or to individuals within the community who have chosen to follow a different path, "you should" or (in more extreme cases) "you will" follow this way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
offcourse , self control works . but not with everyone , can you deny ?
i confess that theire are probability to find someone who is muslim and have a problem with this self-control thing
No, I cannot deny that at all! There are many people out there with no self-control. Even among the religious, self-control can still remain a problem. IN the United States, we have had many, many examples of what one would consider devout Christians who secretly exhibit no self-control, but later are exposed. I would assume the same is true among some of the devout of Islam too, no? Hypocrisy knows no bounds...it crosses all cultures and religions. For those who have little or no self-control, I would submit that that is their problem and they shall suffer the consequences of their actions.

Just as you try to get us to understand your culture, you also need to understand mine. Among my people, the Comanche, we believe no man has the right to tell another what to do. This is why so many of we American Indians reject any religion that would seek to impose it's rules upon another, especially if that imposition is performed via a government. If one chooses to subject themselves to the rules of a religion, then that is certainly their perogative and I hope that makes them happy. The trouble starts when they tell other that they must do the same as it simply is not true.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:18 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balvenie View Post
You just made his point for him!!! Adults are NOT children and treating them as if they have no self control is ridiculous.

offcourse , adults are not childrens ( it depends on the context) , for example i feel no shame to consider my self a fool with comparison to knowledge of God
and i have no shame to consider my self helpless child without help and support of God
and i feel no shame to consider my self a slave when my master is the God


anyway , i think that islam treating entire society of human being as if some of them may have no self control , not as you suggest that all of them are out of control
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