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Old 05-07-2010, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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Thinking about the unverse kinda makes everything seem petty and insignificant.

Like, I don't know, maybe we're just a bunch of poorly evolved hairless bipedal apes who live on a tiny grain of sand in a vast ocean of life far grander and superior to ourselves.

But then I remember we have beer and I thank god for making us so special.
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Not yet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post


nothing
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:42 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,983,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Thinking about the unverse kinda makes everything seem petty and insignificant.

Like, I don't know, maybe we're just a bunch of poorly evolved hairless bipedal apes who live on a tiny grain of sand in a vast ocean of life far grander and superior to ourselves.

But then I remember we have beer and I thank god for making us so special.
chango i love your sense of humour you always make me laugh- fair play to ya
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Old 05-07-2010, 10:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lamplight View Post
I always love seeing the Hubble deep field image. It reminds me that we sometimes get awfully cocky and overestimate the importance of our little mote of dust we call a planet. Kind of makes all the political and religious/non-religious bickering seem utterly insignificant.
Yes...we're like a mite in a field of zoysia grass. All we can see is the grass and other mites.
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Not yet
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Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Well... that would be true if you were talking about the real formative stages of the fetus. But those are not the stages reflected in the Qur'an. The ones reflected in the Qur'an are indistinguishable from the (false) theories of the Greek physician Galen who lived some 400 years or so before Muhammad was born.

The Qur'anic stages (nutfah, alaqah, mudgha) are actually quite in error. And it gets worse when you try to conform it with the completely wrong timing of the stages as reflected in ahadith.

In short, both the Qur'an and the Hadith are factually wrong when discussing embryology.

Although its been a while since I spent any time on this subject, I actually have spent quite a large amount of time exploring the alleged "miraculous scientific information" in the Qur'an in the past. I did so by applying a simple three pronged text. For a piece of "scientific" information in the Qur'an to be considered miraculous, it had to:

1. Be completely unknown to every other human culture and tradition until the Qur'an was written. After all, the Qur'an should not get credit for a miracle that other people were able to figure out on their own without divine help. The "iron came down from heaven" example flunked this test.

2. It had to be a clear and unambiguous statement of fact. Most claims of "miracles of the Qur'an" are actually not in the Qur'an at all, but added in interpretation and commentary. If a "miracle" is something that nobody noticed in the Qur'an until after secular scientists discovered it first, it cannot count. Examples here would be claims of the Qur'an referring to the Big Bang or an expanding universe.

3. It must be true. The "embryology phases" argument you made above flunks this test.

I have to tell you. I have never found a single claim of "miraculous scientific information" in the Qur'an that could pass this test.



How do you deny that?

Stages of man's creation in the Koran the greatest evidence


It in detail :

This is truth



imanway
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Old 05-09-2010, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
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So if this is all your god's creation, why do Muslims do their best to blow it up and make it a hell on earth?
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Old 05-09-2010, 06:58 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
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Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
So if this is all your god's creation, why do Muslims do their best to blow it up and make it a hell on earth?

hay that's what they do best.!!!
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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imamway: I looked at the link you provided, and it is an excellent example of applying more recent discoveries to vague pronouncements from the long ago, much like the 'prophecies' of Nostradamus which have been promoted by some as prescient, or the general pronouncements of the astrology column in one's newspaper. They can hardly fail to be 'true' for many because they are so general (cleverly worded).

Not to mention all the "peace be upon him"s. That becomes very tedious. Must it be so doctrinaire?
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imanway View Post
How do you deny that?

Stages of man's creation in the Koran the greatest evidence
Several years ago I completed an analysis of the errors in Islamic embryology for an online forum.

“Islamic embryology” is derived from both the Qu’ran and the hadith, and is quite consistent across all the contributing sources. The core of the story can be found in the Qu’ran, 022.005:
YUSUFALI: “O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes…”
PICKTHAL: “O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants…”
SHAKIR: “O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies…”
Here we find the three primary stages of embryonic development as defined by the Qu’ran. There is a “seed,” “drop” or “semen” phase (in Arabic, “nutfah”), followed by a “clot” or “leach-like clot” phase (in Arabic, “Alaqah”), followed finally by a “morsel of flesh” or “chewed lump” phase (in Arabic, “Mudghah”).

There are a handful of additional ayaat that deal with this subject, and none of them disagree with this basic scenario. Yet there is more to learn from the hadith, particularly that of Bukhari and Muslim. Again, the accounts are quite consistent, and the additional information they provide is important.

The first of these tells us about developmental timing: Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 430:

“Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud:

“Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period.”

These exact details are also given in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 549. Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593, Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 546, and Sahih Muslim Book 033, Number 6390.

The key information gained from all these ahadith are that the three phases (nutfah, alaqah and madghah) each takes 40 days, for a total period of 120 days from conception to the point at which the embryo becomes a fetus.

One additional piece of testable scientific information is available in the hadith. It has to do with the point at which gender is determined. A representative hadith would be Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 594:

“Narrated Anas bin Malik:

“The Prophet said, "Allah puts an angel in charge of the uterus and the angel says, 'O Lord, (it is) semen! O Lord, (it is now ) a clot! O Lord, (it is now) a piece of flesh.' And then, if Allah wishes to complete its creation, the angel asks, 'O Lord, (will it be) a male or a female?”

This detail is repeated in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 550 and Sahih Muslim Book 033, Number 6397, and all of them are quite clear that the embryo is neither male nor female until after the mudghah phase is reached, some 80 days (by Islamic counting) after conception.

So, then, these are the details of embryology as reflected in the Qu’ran and the hadith.

1) The embryo spends 40 days as a drop of sperm or seed.
2) The embryo then spends another 40 days as a “clot” or a “leech-like clot” of blood.
3) The embryo the spends another 40 days as a “lump of flesh.”
4) At that point bones form.
5) Then the bones are “clothed with flesh.”
6) And finally, the gender of the child is assigned by an angel at Allah’s direction.

These then are the details that must be correlated with actual embryonic development to evaluate the accuracy or inaccuracy of the Islamic account. The question is actually a simple one:

Does this account describe the first 120 days of embryonic development or doesn’t it?


Discussion one: The Islamic Phases - Timing

Taken together, the three phases of Islamic embryology take 120 days to go from conception to the point where the embryo becomes a fetus (i.e. an identifiable human baby), or right around 17 weeks. Does this reflect what we now know about embryonic development.

The answer is patently, no. The human embryo becomes a fetus around week 9, or roughly half the time Islamic embryology requires. By day 56 the fetus is essentially a complete, though tiny, human being with all organ systems in place, and all tissues developed. This is right in the middle of what Islam calls the “alaquah” phase. In other words, the developing person is already a complete human being at a point where the hadith insists it (not he or she) still has almost three weeks remaining as a “clot of congealed blood.”

In fact, there are no developmental milestones which can be mapped to the three 40 day periods required by Islamic embryology, even though they are stressed in several authoritative ahadith.

Conclusion: The hadith is demonstrably wrong concerning the timing of embryologic development.


Discussion two: The Islamic Phases – Description

The three Islamic phases of development are described in a very visual way, allowing for an informed evaluation of the accuracy of those descriptions. This might be expected if for no other reason than that during the Prophet’s day, there was not even the idea of a microscope, and any descriptions offered would reasonably be of objects that were visible to an unaided eye. And this is exactly what we find.

And certainly, each of the three Islamic stages is described at a visible level of scale. A drop of seed, a clot of blood, a lump of flesh; all of them are objects of a size with which the ancient Arabs would have been familiar.

The “Drop of Seed” Phase (Nutfah)


There is little to no debate among Muslims as to the meaning of the word, “nutfah.” It is a “drop of seed” or “drop of semen” of the sort that would have been familiar to any adult Arab male. The Arabs rightly understood (as did all of their non-Arab neighbors) that semen was necessary to begin the process of procreation. But, exactly as with all their non-Arab neighbors, the writers of the Qu’ran and the hadith did not seem to understand that there was an egg produced by the mother that is fertilized by the male’s semen.

The Arabs believed that the woman served simply as an incubator for a child that was fully contained in the father’s seed. There was no understanding of the actual biology of sexual reproduction, and no such understanding is apparent in the Qu’ran.

Instead, the Qu’ran tells us that the “drop of seed” remains exactly that (a drop of seed) for the entire nutfah phase (40 days according to Bukhari and Muslim). What actually IS happening during those 40 days, and how might it be said to resemble a “drop of seed?”

The actual “drop of seed” provided by the male dissipates within minutes of ejaculation, so even before conception, the literal “drop of seed” no longer exists. The case could certainly be made that the fertilized egg resembles a seed until about day 13 or fourteen, but the “drop” is long gone, replaced with a microscopic egg that moves through a period called the “blastocyst.” But by the beginning of the third week, the embryo has already begun to differentiate into a trilaminar embryo with the three layers of ectoderm, mesoderm, and endoderm. A mere two and a half weeks after conception, the embryo no longer looks anything like a “drop of seed,” while the Islamic tradition indicates that the nutfah stage should last for an additional three weeks.

By day 40 of actual embryonic development (when the “drop” stage should be just ending and the “clot” stage beginning) the embryo is actually very well advanced. Measuring some 11 millimeters long, and the nervous system is well along its development. The embryo has eyes and ears, all four limbs have begun to form, the heart bulge is prominent. It bears no resemblance at this point to either a “drop of seed” or a “leech-like clot.”

Interim Conclusion: The Qu’ran is in error describing the embryo as a “drop of seed” for any significant period of time, and certainly wrong in assigning a 40 day period to such a phase.

The “Leech-Like Clot” Phase (Alaqah)

The word “alaqah” is a bit more ambiguous than “nutfah,” and so has been translated a bit more flexibly by Islamic apologists. Although consistently translated as a “clot of blood” by multiple translators, there are a handful of instances where it is rendered as “a leech-like clot.” This is the phase that (according to Bukhari and Muslim) should last from about day 41 to day 80 after conception.

Among the many images of Allah’s creative power reflected in the Qu’ran and the hadith, the image of man having been created from a clot of blood is one of the most common, showing up over a dozen times in the Qu’ran, Bukhari and Islam alone.

What actually IS happening during those 40 days, and how might it be said to resemble a “leech-like clot?”

The period of development covered by the “alaqah” stage includes from week six until week eleven after conception. The first two weeks of this “phase” actually encompass the final two weeks of embryonic development, for at that point the baby is essentially completely formed, and from here on out is known as a fetus.

Interestingly, at no time during this period (or any period for that matter) does the embryo or fetus resemble a “clot.” And while dependence of the placenta might be described as being vaguely “leech-like” in that it is attached to the uterine wall, no one would ever confuse the embryo or fetus with a leech.

This is as good a point as any to point out that embryonic development is essentially over by day 56, or in less than one half of the time described by Islamic embryology.

For over three weeks of the supposed “alaqah” phase, rather than a “leech-like clot” the fetus is actually a fully formed human being, ranging in size from 35 mm to about 80 mm in length.

Interim Conclusion: The Qu’ran and hadith are in error describing the embryo as a “leech-like clot” for any period of time, and certainly wrong in assigning the period from 41 to 80 days for such a phase.


The “Lump of Flesh” Phase – (Mudghah)

The Arabic word “Mudghah” is uniformly described as a “lump” or “morsel of flesh.” Sometimes, it is more descriptively referred to as a “chewed lump of meat.” According to the hadith, this phase would cover day 81 to 120 of fetal development, or weeks 12 through 17.

However, rather than a “lump” of anything, this period is one primarily of increasing size for the already fully formed fetus. During this period of time the fetus grows finger and toenails, begins to grow hair, and by the end of it the mother is beginning to feel the child’s movements. At no time during these weeks does the fetus look like anything other than an obvious human being.

If there were anytime during which the embryo might be described as a “lump of flesh,” that would have been much earlier, perhaps during the fourth week. But even then, the embryo was quite organized and complex, hardly “chewed” in any sense of the word.

Interim Conclusion: The Qu’ran and hadith are in error describing the embryo as a “morsel of flesh” for any significant period of time, and certainly wrong in assigning the period from 81 to 120 days for such a phase.

Conclusion: The three Qu’ranic phases are impossible to conform with actual embryonic development, and that problem is only magnified by the timing of those phases as prescribed by the hadith. There are no actual phases that can be correlated to nutfah, alaqah or mudghah, and the level of development that Islam asserts takes 120 days actually takes less than half of it.


Discussion 3 – Gender

According to multiple ahadith, it is only after the mudghha phase (days 81-120) that an angel of the Lord determines the gender of the baby. But in fact, modern genetics shows that the gender of the baby is determined at the moment of conception, and is therefore already set some four months before Islam asserts the question is even asked of Allah.

Conclusion: The authors of the Qu’ran and the hadith had no idea as to the genetic nature of gender, and assumed wrongly that it was assigned by Allah months after it was actually determined by genetics. The Islamic model is wrong again.


Some Notes on the Interpretations of Dr. Keith Moore

Dr. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C. of the Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada, has become a favorite of Islamic apologists ever since he accepted an invitation to produce a special edition of his Embryology Text Book specifically for use by Muslim students in Islamic Universities.

In articles published widely across Islamic web sites, Dr. Moore goes on the record to provide a generous assessment of the Qu’ran and hadith in the light of modern knowledge about embryology. But a review of his “analysis” shows the extent to which he had to twist both the Islamic scriptures and modern science in order to get the “facts” to correlate.

Specifically, Moore’s intellectual lapses are these:

1) He liberally translates Arabic into terms that no Arabic speaker would consider justified, but that allows him to pretend the Arabic is closer to truth than it really is. For example, in spite of the fact that almost three dozen translations of “alaqah” found on line never once exclude the word “clot,” Moore writes instead that “The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker.”

2) He completely ignores the timing of phases dictated by the hadith, for to consider them renders even his mistranslation unintelligeble. For example, after mistranslating “alaqah” to mean “a leech or bloodsucker,” he then compares it to the human embryo at 24 days gestation. But 24 days is still firmly within the “nutfah” phase, when the embryo should actually look like a “drop of seed.” He does the same with “mudghah,” comparing it with the embryo at 28 days, still in the “nutfah” phase and only four days later than he had assigned to “alaqah.”

One might speculate on the reasons Dr. Moore might have for this travesty of embryology, but actually the answer is a simple one. He was apparently quite well paid for essentially no real additional work. The textbook he delivered to the Saudi Universities that commissioned the work is titled, "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology with Islamic Additions." (ISBN 0-7216-6472-5).

The base textbook is work that Moore had apparently completed years before, while the “Islamic Additions” appear to be the work of an Abdul-Majeed A. Azzindani, and not Dr. Moore’s at all.

And an interesting side bar (of no real importance, but entertaining none the less) is that the Acknowledgments for the book recognize a number of “distinguished scholars” who supported the book with time or money. And number 6 on the list?

Sheik Osamah bin Ladin.
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: NC, USA
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O man! What has made you careless concerning your Lord

Oh Wow!!! neither Mighty Mouse, nor the rest of the Saturday Morning cartoons were known before the coran either, one other little thing, How come MoHAMmed has pork meat mentioned in the middle of his name?????
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