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Old 06-14-2007, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,514,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
Yes, Irishmom, you DO reject the Bible. You may not think you do, but when you claim that it was written by man, and that it has changed over the centuries, then the core of your message is that you DO indeed reject it.
How do you presume to say this, Rob? The Bible was indeed written by man...fallible man. It has indeed changed over the centuries. You can't really dispute these facts. I do believe, as does Irish, that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. But I also realize that humans are imperfect.

IMHO, God's WORD is INERRANT! Men's BIBLES are filled with ERROR! I was at a large Bible Book Store yesterday. There are HUNDREDS of translations. Why is that? Are the ALL INERRANT? If they were, then they would all be translated with the SAME WORDS!

Even the revered King James Version is not a pure 'translation' out of the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but rather is a revision of other translations including the Catholic Latin Vulgate by Jerome. Did you know that the 1611 King James Bibles contained fourteen additional books that are no longer found in the modern King James Bible? Which edition was "inerrant," the one WITH the fourteen additional books or the ones WITHOUT the fourteen additional books? We are not talking about a word or two here, we are talking about WHOLE BOOKS disappearing from the King James Version!!!

Have you seen the NEW King James Version? Why did they produce a NEW version with DIFFERENT words in it if the OLD King James Version was "inerrant?" The KJV translates "sheol" (the GRAVE) into the English word "grave" 31 times and it translates the same Hebrew word "sheol" into the English word "hell" 31 times. You call that "INNERANT?" Which is it, the grave or hell?

Did you know that many modern language translations are dropping the translation of "hell" in the Old Testament. That's because they have checked and found that the KJV translations were in absolute error on this subject. The Holy Spirit inspired the New Testament to be written in Greek. When a New Testament writer quotes from the Old Testament Hebrew, the Holy Spirit inspired them to translate the Hebrew word "sheol" (the grave, erroneously translated hell half of the time) into the Greek word "HADES." So the Hebrew "sheol" (grave) and the Greek "hades" are synonymous--they have the SAME MEANING, and yet, and YET the KJV translations translate the Greek word hades (the UNSEEN,
the abode of the dead, the GRAVE) into they word "hell" 99% of the time!!!

Why not only 50% of the time as in the Old Testament? But now to the 1%. What about that ONE PERCENT (actually only ONE TIME) that the KJV did NOT translate the Greek word "hades" into the English word "hell." What happened there? I'll show you. I Cor. 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave [Greek 'hades' always translated 'hell' elsewhere in the New Testament], where is thy victory?"

Did you catch that, my friend. In I Cor. 15:55 the KJV translators translated the Greek word not "hell" but "GRAVE." Why? Why just this ONCE? Why because there is "VICTORY" over THIS "HADES" over THIS "GRAVE" over THIS "HELL" but the deceitful translators following their pagan traditions wanted to deceive their readers on this one verse. They didn't want anyone to KNOW that there is VICTORY OVER HADES WHICH THEY ALWAYS TRANSLATE HELL in the New Testament!!!

Just sayin'....

 
Old 06-14-2007, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,996,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
How do you presume to say this, Rob? The Bible was indeed written by man...fallible man. It has indeed changed over the centuries. You can't really dispute these facts. I do believe, as does Irish, that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. But I also realize that humans are imperfect.

IMHO, God's WORD is INERRANT! Men's BIBLES are filled with ERROR! I was at a large Bible Book Store yesterday. There are HUNDREDS of translations. Why is that? Are the ALL INERRANT? If they were, then they would all be translated with the SAME WORDS!
Hey JeffnCandace (Which one are you, anyway? Jeff or Candace?)

Before I even finish reading your post, I just have to ask you something.....

I took a look at that link you posted. And you claim the Bible has changed over the centuries. But how are you so sure it wasn't those 600 verses that were changed? Why is it you're so quick to accept THOSE Bible verses, but not the other ones? Could it be that you're picking and choosing the ones you WANT to believe based on what you WANT them to say? I mean, you claim the Bible has been changed, but how do you know WHICH verses have been changed?
 
Old 06-14-2007, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,996,633 times
Reputation: 810
Okay, JeffnCandace....now that I've read your post - so what? Did I say anything about the King James Version???
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:01 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,327,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
If you want to get to a secluded beautiful resort, and the only expert who truly knows the way to get there sends you a letter stating "Don't take the interstate highway, because it will only lead you to a dead end at a volcano. Take the narrow side-road instead, and it will get you where you want to be." - does that mean something different from what it clearly states?
Let me answer this one.

If speaking to those who drive cars, you are correct.

To those who own a helicopter, on the other hand...
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,514,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
Okay, JeffnCandace....now that I've read your post - so what? Did I say anything about the King James Version???
I didn't say you did, Rob. I was simply trying to make a point that you can hardly judge Irishmom so harshly when she has a very valid point about the Bible. I was simply trying to say that the Bible isn't perfect, and that's easily deduced by going back to what I posted, as it's all facts.

Regarding your other question, I have studied the Bible enough to be comfortable that those verses, by and large, are indeed correctly translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. Unlike alot of other verses, mostly ones that have to do with the word "hell"
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,514,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
The topic of this thread is one of the questions that led me towards Universalism. Most Christians wouldn't want to admit it, but YES, according to their beliefs, it WOULD be better to just kill babies because that would at least guarantee their eternal soul would go to heaven. If given the chance to grow up, they might not accept Christ, and if they did, they might not keep all the rules, and therefore would end up in hell for all eternity.

Since this is what most truly do believe if they believe in traditional Christianity (even if they can't admit it to themselves), then why are they so adamantly against abortion? Aren't abortionists saving souls by the thousands?

Come on now Christians--be honest. If you truly believe in an eternal, fiery hell, then you know it's true!
P.S. Needed to get this back on topic, so reposted my original post that is on topic. I am genuinly curious as to how Christians who do believe in hell field this question.
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,996,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Let me answer this one.

If speaking to those who drive cars, you are correct.

To those who own a helicopter, on the other hand...
Awe, come on man....fly back to the planet you came from. Don't make me do this.....

The point being, the EXPERT told them the best way to get there was by taking a side road. And there is no other way, because he has already stated previously that HE was the only way. HE was the expert and .....

Oh, never mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
WCRob wrote:

Well, no one was even saying anything about me, but I can defend my point of view pretty well when I need to. I am sorry if it's seemed like you were getting hit from all sides at one time or another. I know I'm not perfect and I've been guilty of going overboard with my comments from time to time but I really am trying to never make it personal.
I wasn't directing that specifically at you. You simply said we should stop ganging up on Irishmom, and I simply asked why? Where was everyone jumping to MY rescue when I was being ganged up on? If those who were dishing it out can't take it, then they need to stop dishing it out. That's all I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
I didn't say you did, Rob. I was simply trying to make a point that you can hardly judge Irishmom so harshly when she has a very valid point about the Bible. I was simply trying to say that the Bible isn't perfect, and that's easily deduced by going back to what I posted, as it's all facts.

Regarding your other question, I have studied the Bible enough to be comfortable that those verses, by and large, are indeed correctly translated from the original Greek and Hebrew. Unlike alot of other verses, mostly ones that have to do with the word "hell"
So you know Greek and Hebrew?

I don't even know why this has gotten this out of hand. All I said in the beginning was that Jesus said there was a broad way and a broad gate, and that many would go that route, leading to destruction. (The verse I posted didn't use the word "hell".) But there was a narrow path and narrow gate that led to life, and few would find it. I only pointed out that verse as a way of countering the argument that all people would be saved. I also pointed out where Jesus said that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord..." will be saved.

Why is it that all the happy-happy, joy-joy, feel-good verses have been correctly translated and the other ones which speak of judgment have been mistranslated? Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you? For the record, I don't use the King James version. But more contemporary versions that have been correctly translated STILL point to Jesus as being the only way.

Go figure.
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,514,382 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
Why is it that all the happy-happy, joy-joy, feel-good verses have been correctly translated and the other ones which speak of judgment have been mistranslated?
A great question Rob...perhaps we should look at some church history and it's control of the masses, starting at the dawn of the dark ages, which, coincidentally I'm sure , was also when Universalism was declared heretical by the future Roman Catholic Church. Could it perhaps have anything to do with that?

P.S. No I'm not fluent in Greek or Hebrew, but I do have concordances and the like
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,996,633 times
Reputation: 810
Since this has drifted WAY off topic, I will let my last post be my last post in this thread.

I've pretty much said what I wanted to say.....I think from a Christian POV, that babies are NOT better off dying as infants, because there is always the possibility that there will be some point in their lives when they could possibly be introduced to the truth of Jesus.

Carry on with your discussion.
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,514,382 times
Reputation: 466
Awwww....so typical. Start asking the hard questions and the hell-believing Christians bow out.

So, it's POSSIBLE they might get saved? But it's a SURE THING that they will make it to heaven if they die in infancy...
Considering that an eternity in torture hangs in the balance, I would'nt say I like those odds...
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