U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 06-14-2007, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 20,313,190 times
Reputation: 21296

Advertisements

I think the problem is with the question. Was it worth the risk to God to create man with free will in the first place? Apparently, He thought it was.

 
Old 06-14-2007, 04:34 PM
 
25,740 posts, read 25,367,995 times
Reputation: 24346
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
I think the problem is with the question. Was it worth the risk to God to create man with free will in the first place? Apparently, He thought it was.
But how could there have been a risk if God knows all?

Surely he knew the outcome before he started. Making the whole "free will" equation one that doesn't add up either way.

I think "free will", or "lack of free will," are human constructs and that we're all missing the mark on this one somehow. It has to go a lot deeper than this philosophy because otherwise, as I said...it just doesn't add up. Free will = God isn't sure how we'll end up going (good v. bad) = God is not all-knowing. OR, lack of free will = God knows before you're even conceived that you're going to eventually burn in hell = VERY strange that a non-sadistic being would allow this.

I know, I know. Probably a subject for another thread.

Last edited by JerZ; 06-14-2007 at 04:43 PM.. Reason: bolded: "conceived", not "concerned"
 
Old 06-14-2007, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Happy wherever I am - Florida now
3,359 posts, read 10,907,213 times
Reputation: 3838
Your original question is flawed as Muslims do believe in Jesus (as well as Mohammed).
 
Old 06-14-2007, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,010,327 times
Reputation: 20425
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
So you know Greek and Hebrew?
I know you weren't talking to me, but I DO speak Hebrew - and concur with what JeffnCandace was saying, that it's been mis-translated in too many ways to cite.
 
Old 06-14-2007, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,513,655 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
But how could there have been a risk of God knows all?

Surely he knew the outcome before he started. Making the whole "free will" equation one that doesn't add up either way.

I think "free will", or "lack of free will," are human constructs and that we're all missing the mark on this one somehow. It has to go a lot deeper than this philosophy because otherwise, as I said...it just doesn't add up. Free will = God isn't sure how we'll end up going, good or bad = God is not all-knowing. OR, lack of free will = God knows before you're even concerned that you're going to eventually burn in hell = VERY strange that a non-sadistic being would allow this.

I know, I know. Probably a subject for another thread.
Thanks JerZ. I have been trying to say what you just said forever on another forum, and failing pitifully.

Also, I've tried TWICE to reinterate to the Christians on here the original questions, which they have ignored. Christians that believe in hell just can't seem to bring themselves to face it.

And if you are a Christian who believes in hell and feels compelled to respond to this post, please go back a coupla pages and read my post asking the Thread Question again. Then please respond to that instead.

I dare ya.
 
Old 06-14-2007, 04:59 PM
 
25,740 posts, read 25,367,995 times
Reputation: 24346
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Thanks JerZ. I have been trying to say what you just said forever on another forum, and failing pitifully.

Also, I've tried TWICE to reinterate to the Christians on here the original questions, which they have ignored. Christians that believe in hell just can't seem to bring themselves to face it.

And if you are a Christian who believes in hell and feels compelled to respond to this post, please go back a coupla pages and read my post asking the Thread Question again. Then please respond to that instead.

I dare ya.
Jeff, BTW, I meant "conceived", not "concerned"--I edited the post--sorry!

Yes, I know. I've argued this before here too and nobody was able to answer it. That in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing or a blemish on anyone's character or knowledge or anything. It just means, God is way huger than we are...and we really can't understand it all. Certainly not with words (i.e. in a book--even the Bible) as words themselves are only symbols.

Sometimes I think God set up life like a Monopoly game. Think about it this way (well, you, Jeff, probably already have--but I mean, anybody reading this). Suppose you sit down to play a game of Monopoly. And before you even choose whether you're going to be the shoe or the car, someone tells you, "You're going to win."

Wouldn't that change the way you played the entire game? How could you get excited over your little wins--like Boardwalk and Park Place with a hotel each? Where's the excitement? You already know you're going to win. Likewise, would you be worried about any of the losses? You know you're going to win anyway, so who cares?

In fact, the game wouldn't even be entertaining. It wouldn't be so much as mildly interesting. It might even be annoying! "Why the hell do I have to keep moving my stupid boot around when I already know I'm going to win?"

You MIGHT even sit back and just NOT play, and wait for the boot to magically move ITSELF around the board. It would magically have to, since you've been preordained to win. So you wouldn't even be playing!

But look what you'd miss out on. You'd miss out on the excitement, the thrill, learning about another person's bluffs by studying his or her face or posture or studying how he or she makes moves, or whether she buys up early or is more conservative with her fake money. You'd miss out on the laughter with the other person when you try to steal from the bank. You'd also miss out on learning lots of rules: Take your turn; try to win but don't be a cockensnifter about it; let someone else be the boot sometimes; try your best.

And it would all be the same if you knew in advance that you'd lose. Why even bother playing? We would all be born, lie around and stare at the wall.

So...just a thought! (A long one, granted.)

I know this is all about hell, so...no, I can't believe an all-knowing God would sentence people to hell that he knew, before they were even born, would be the Monopoly losers, unless He's way sadistic, in which case we're all scr*wed, because then the people who wind up in "heaven" will eternally be with a sadist...who knows what He might do up there if this is what He'd be willing to do down here???
 
Old 06-14-2007, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,513,655 times
Reputation: 466
Awesome thought (albiet a long one ), JerZ. I believe that we are ALL destined to win, but that doesn't stop me from checking out the world I live in, trying my best to enjoy it and my family and friends. Ever since I have come to understand that God is NOT sadist who has pre-ordained eternal torture for most of His creation, it's as if a giant weight was lifted off my shoulders. I don't feel panic inside, but peace. I know that all I can do is be the best person that I can be, and love my fellow man as best I can, and worship my Creator as best I can. All of those who so strongly defend a belief in hell on here won't and can't add up the equation that an all loving and all powerful God would allow that to happen. It just doesn't add up! If it does (to whomever reads this), again I direct you to the original question of this thread...

The topic of this thread is one of the questions that led me towards Universalism. Most Christians wouldn't want to admit it, but YES, according to their beliefs, it WOULD be better to just kill babies because that would at least guarantee their eternal soul would go to heaven. If given the chance to grow up, they might not accept Christ, and if they did, they might not keep all the rules, and therefore would end up in hell for all eternity.

Since this is what most truly do believe if they believe in traditional Christianity (even if they can't admit it to themselves), then why are they so adamantly against abortion? Aren't abortionists saving souls by the thousands?

Come on now Christians--be honest. If you truly believe in an eternal, fiery hell, then you know it's true!

Let's see if they will answer this time JerZ!
 
Old 06-14-2007, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,996,270 times
Reputation: 810
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
I know you weren't talking to me, but I DO speak Hebrew - and concur with what JeffnCandace was saying, that it's been mis-translated in too many ways to cite.
And I should believe you or Jeff over the church WHY??
 
Old 06-14-2007, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 20,313,190 times
Reputation: 21296
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
But how could there have been a risk if God knows all?

Surely he knew the outcome before he started. Making the whole "free will" equation one that doesn't add up either way.

I think "free will", or "lack of free will," are human constructs and that we're all missing the mark on this one somehow. It has to go a lot deeper than this philosophy because otherwise, as I said...it just doesn't add up. Free will = God isn't sure how we'll end up going (good v. bad) = God is not all-knowing. OR, lack of free will = God knows before you're even conceived that you're going to eventually burn in hell = VERY strange that a non-sadistic being would allow this.

I know, I know. Probably a subject for another thread.
Well, again, I know I've said this somewhere,but not all conservative theologians believe that God is omniscient in the sense that He knows what His creation will choose before they choose it.( Check out Dr. Greg Boyd's "God of the Possible." ) Also, even assuming that He does, it's only because in His realm of knowing the beginning from the end, it's already happened. In that sense, He can't then go in and tinker and change what they've already chosen...because in the realm of reality He's knowing, it's already happened. I'm not the best at explaining this. It's a hard concept to articulate.
 
Old 06-15-2007, 05:01 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
13,153 posts, read 17,412,211 times
Reputation: 5026
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Do you really need "verses" to believe in a loving God?? I don't mean to sound condescending in saying this, but I think it's sad that you'd feel that way. Maybe it's just my upbringing as a Reform Jew, however I think God's love is evident without finding passages in a man-made book.
Just catching up with the forum...

Every time someone says they don't mean to be condescending, they come across exactly as that. It's sort of like saying, "to tell the truth..." and I always wonder if it really is the truth that is coming out. Just me, I guess.

As a Reform Jew, do you study the Tanakh, and the Talmud? Are signs of God's love all you're looking for?

I look for more than that in the Bible. It is my source for helping me to know God, as much as is possible for any of us to know Him. It is a lifelong search and doesn't end on this side. When we are there, we will see Him and know Him. Here, I count on the verses to tell me who He is. The Bible is my one book. I'll read others, but I'll always check them against the Bible. so, yes, I do need verses, otherwise I'd be blown about in the land of opinion and feel-good theories and never know what is Truth.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top