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Old 06-16-2007, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,997,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
I honestly appreciate your post and understand what you are saying. But the human parent above (I hope) would punish the child in order to correct the behaviour, not simply to be vindictive. And (I hope) they certainly wouldn't punish their child forever!

We were made in the likeness of God. If we can't fathom eternal punishment for our children, how can God? IMHO, and I absolutely mean NO disrespect, I think when Christians use the tried and true "we can't understand God's ways", while true in a general sense, simply doesn't cover hurting people for all eternity. Again, IMHO.
I suppose the only thing I might say in response is that not all people are considered children of God. In John 8:38-47, it reads:

[Jesus speaking] "I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."

"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does."

"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."


Also see John 1:12, Romans 8:14-19 and 1 John 3:10.

It's on thing for a parent to discipline a child for a length of time, but something different when an unrepentant enemy outright attacks you with the intent of destroying you and your children.

 
Old 06-16-2007, 06:36 PM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,087,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
I suppose the only thing I might say in response is that not all people are considered children of God.
Excellent set of scriptures!

You'll need to save this post for one of those threads talking about how we all worship the same god, and how all paths lead to heaven.

Quote:
It's on thing for a parent to discipline a child for a length of time, but something different when an unrepentant enemy outright attacks you with the intent of destroying you and your children.
Good summation of the argument. Even the "good" people that are leading people down the wrong path fall into the category of unrepentant enemy, whether they're doing it knowingly or unknowingly.
 
Old 06-16-2007, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
Even the "good" people that are leading people down the wrong path fall into the category of unrepentant enemy, whether they're doing it knowingly or unknowingly.
How can you be unrepentant if you don't know you are sinning? That doesn't make any sense.
 
Old 06-17-2007, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Moderator cut: orphaned quote
I've tried to explain a couple different times that my meaning was misunderstood and that I should have written it a little differently. I wasn't advocating that children should die or be killed and it didn't even occur to me that it might be taken that way. I was thinking in terms of natural death that happens everyday to children all around the world and the fact that even though it's a terrible trajedy that according to many religious people it would ensure that these children go to heaven. I didn't mean for it to sound callous or cold hearted.

Last edited by Trainwreck20; 06-19-2007 at 09:02 AM..
 
Old 06-18-2007, 03:53 AM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,087,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
How can you be unrepentant if you don't know you are sinning? That doesn't make any sense.
Good catch! That doesn't make sense. I even had to scratch my head trying to remember what I was thinking.

To understand what I meant, we have to go back to the quote I pasted from WCRob: "that not all people are considered children of God." I was looking at all unbelievers as the unrepentant enemy. Some non-Christians are hostile and purposefully lead others away from Christianity. Other non-Christians aren't actively or knowingly trying to lead others astray; yet they do so by advocating a different belief system or misapplying the Christian one.
 
Old 06-18-2007, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 10,999,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
Good catch! That doesn't make sense. I even had to scratch my head trying to remember what I was thinking.

To understand what I meant, we have to go back to the quote I pasted from WCRob: "that not all people are considered children of God." I was looking at all unbelievers as the unrepentant enemy. Some non-Christians are hostile and purposefully lead others away from Christianity. Other non-Christians aren't actively or knowingly trying to lead others astray; yet they do so by advocating a different belief system or misapplying the Christian one.
Honestly I tried to go back and find it...but I'm lost. I understand what you are saying...but I still don't think if you are unaware you are sinning or doing anything wrong, that you are.
 
Old 06-18-2007, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 2,516,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
I suppose the only thing I might say in response is that not all people are considered children of God. In John 8:38-47, it reads:

It's on thing for a parent to discipline a child for a length of time, but something different when an unrepentant enemy outright attacks you with the intent of destroying you and your children.
So all non-believers are "an unrepentant enemy"? Whoa. Jihad!

So not all people are considered children of God...what about scriptures that say that God is the God of the spirits of All Flesh (Numbers 16:22 & 27:16)? Or the (too many to name here) the Scriptures that say God is the God of "all people" (1 Kings 8:43 & 8:60, Exodus 19:5, Genesis 28:14)?

I think Dueteronomy 10:14 sums it up nicely..."Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."
 
Old 06-19-2007, 06:36 AM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,087,212 times
Reputation: 3525
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
So all non-believers are "an unrepentant enemy"? Whoa. Jihad!

So not all people are considered children of God...what about scriptures that say that God is the God of the spirits of All Flesh (Numbers 16:22 & 27:16)? Or the (too many to name here) the Scriptures that say God is the God of "all people" (1 Kings 8:43 & 8:60, Exodus 19:5, Genesis 28:14)?

I think Dueteronomy 10:14 sums it up nicely..."Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."
There is a major difference between the verses you presented and those WCRob did. Your verses are talking about God's position over mankind; as the only, true God, the creator of heaven and earth, He can and does claim ownership. He is the God of all flesh, whether or not that flesh realizes it.

WCRob's verses, however, talk about relationship. The passage he quotes pretty much spoke for itself. However, John 1:10-12 makes it abundantly clear: "He [Jesus] was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." [emphasis added] There are two groups of people represented here: those who did not receive Jesus and those who did. Only one of these two groups becomes the "children of God." Only those who receive Jesus and believe on His name are given the title "children of God."
 
Old 06-19-2007, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,997,943 times
Reputation: 810
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
So all non-believers are "an unrepentant enemy"? Whoa. Jihad!
Yep, that's pretty much it. If you're an enemy of God and you don't repent, then I think God pretty much has the right to tell you you're not allowed into His Kingdom. Don't you think if YOU owned a kingdom, and you had people who wanted to try to attack you and harm your children, that you'd pretty much ban them from your kingdom unless they agreed to abide by your rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
So not all people are considered children of God...what about scriptures that say that God is the God of the spirits of All Flesh (Numbers 16:22 & 27:16)? Or the (too many to name here) the Scriptures that say God is the God of "all people" (1 Kings 8:43 & 8:60, Exodus 19:5, Genesis 28:14)?

I think Dueteronomy 10:14 sums it up nicely..."Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."
What can I say, Jeff? The Scriptures say what they say. If you have some better way of interpreting them, let's hear it. But it seems that no matter what I post in here anymore, you want to come along and contradict it. So tell you what - I won't post anymore. I'll let your enlightened mind lead the way from now on.
 
Old 06-19-2007, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,836 posts, read 17,333,556 times
Reputation: 3722
After reading only 1/8 of the 13 pages of this thread, I think I've decided to take hell. It will be a nice reprieve from the hell on earth that has been created using God's words.

Man, some people need to JUST BE!! Just LIVE!

Peace.
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