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Old 06-13-2007, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
29,041 posts, read 45,029,897 times
Reputation: 20425

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Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Irishmom, your posts are sweet and gentle, and I like reading them. I like the pictures you paint with your words of a nicer, kinder, gentler God who understands us all and will accept us all, in the end, no matter what, just because he loves us. I would very much like to believe that, but I'd need some scriptural support to think about it. Do you have any verses? You don't need to quote chapter and verse...if you're like me, you probably don't have them memorized. Lots of times I can only remember the gist of a verse. So, if you have anything from the Bible that you can provide in the way of support for your view, I'd really like to know what that is.

Thanks!
Do you really need "verses" to believe in a loving God?? I don't mean to sound condescending in saying this, but I think it's sad that you'd feel that way. Maybe it's just my upbringing as a Reform Jew, however I think God's love is evident without finding passages in a man-made book.

 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:43 PM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,087,024 times
Reputation: 3525
Default Oh, I am so going to get flamed for this!

I believe I'm in the minority of Christians for I'm not convinced all babies go to heaven. I believe children are sanctified through their parents. I take this from 1 Corinthians 7:14: "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." [emphasis added]

I can certainly see from Romans 7:9 where people get the idea of an age of accountability. The difference, I believe, lies in the question of whether all children are sanctified. Based on the verse in 1 Corinthians, sanctification comes through belief. Unbelieving family members are sanctified through the believing parent/spouse.

This is definitely one of those areas where I "see through a glass darkly." Ultimately, I'm not sure of certain aspects of Scripture. When it comes to heaven and babies and heathens who have never heard of Jesus, I will leave the decision to Jesus, the Righteous Judge. I fully trust Him to make the perfect decision. However, I also understand that His ways are not our ways, so that perfect decision may be inexplicable to us with our human limitations.
 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 10,999,268 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Irishmom, your posts are sweet and gentle, and I like reading them. I like the pictures you paint with your words of a nicer, kinder, gentler God who understands us all and will accept us all, in the end, no matter what, just because he loves us. I would very much like to believe that, but I'd need some scriptural support to think about it. Do you have any verses? You don't need to quote chapter and verse...if you're like me, you probably don't have them memorized. Lots of times I can only remember the gist of a verse. So, if you have anything from the Bible that you can provide in the way of support for your view, I'd really like to know what that is. Thanks!
Here's a few, I'm sure I could find more if you need. But like I said I really believe that God can do what He wants, and that He would want to save everyone. One way for Him to do that is to bring Jesus into the hearts and lives of some, but for others He has chosen a different path. I don't think there is only one way for Him to do that. I am confident and comfortable with these beliefs, just as many are that what they believe is true. I also think it's all good as long as you respect the beliefs of others.

1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved
1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time
1Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself
Col 1:16-By Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live
Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved
Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all
1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth-
Ps 46:10-God will do all His pleasure-
Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts-
Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps-
La 3:31,32-God will not cast off forever
Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things
Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 145:9-He is good to all-
Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall-
Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws them.
Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself
 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,078 posts, read 3,498,506 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
But you're assuming the Bible IS His word, and literally translated at that... some of us disagree, and feel there are many facets to religion, God, and faith. Like Irishmom said (more or less), it would be naive to take everything literally, and to stop thinking for oneself. Also, I agree that God wouldn't create all these people, only to condemn them to Hell. In my OPINION, the different religions are merely interpretations of the same basic principle & belief. And if Heaven & Hell do exist, I don't think God would send you to one based only on who/what you pray to (or don't pray to) - but rather, we'd be judged on our character and soul. I know some awful people who pray to Jesus every day, and wonderful people who don't pray at all... if God would rather send the awful people to Heaven, simply because they "accept God/Jesus/Allah/etc.", I want no part of such a God.
As a Christian I must BELIEVE that, not just assume it. I think for myself, and I trust Him completely, one can do both.
And you have your beliefs, which I respect, but you by no means would call yourself Christian.
Christians just for the record, are not those who call themselves so, but are followers of Christ, by our fruit we are known, not by what we claim, if you produce rotten fruit you can call yourself Christian that does not make you one.
And we are back to what started this thread within a thread:
Matthew 7: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

MBG
MBG
 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,078 posts, read 3,498,506 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
Here's a few, I'm sure I could find more if you need. But like I said I really believe that God can do what He wants, and that He would want to save everyone. One way for Him to do that is to bring Jesus into the hearts and lives of some, but for others He has chosen a different path. I don't think there is only one way for Him to do that. I am confident and comfortable with these beliefs, just as many are that what they believe is true. I also think it's all good as long as you respect the beliefs of others.

1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved
1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time
1Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself
Col 1:16-By Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live
Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved
Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all
1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth-
Ps 46:10-God will do all His pleasure-
Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts-
Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps-
La 3:31,32-God will not cast off forever
Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things
Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 145:9-He is good to all-
Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall-
Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws them.
Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself
Good way to take half quotes and scripture out of context!! OH MY GOODNESSS!!!

Only Yeshua Saves!!!

MBG
 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:53 PM
 
25,740 posts, read 25,381,708 times
Reputation: 24346
"Think you're really righteous?
Think you're pure at heart?
Well I know I'm a MILLION times
As humble as thou art!"

--Weird Al Yankovich
 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 10,999,268 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
Maybe it's just my upbringing as a Reform Jew, however I think God's love is evident without finding passages in a man-made book.
OMG! Gizmo....except for the Jesus thing maybe I am a Jew!
 
Old 06-13-2007, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,078 posts, read 3,498,506 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
"Think you're really righteous?
Think you're pure at heart?
Well I know I'm a MILLION times
As humble as thou art!"

--Weird Al Yankovich
Jerz...I love Weird Al... I know I for one, am nothing, only God makes me anything...we are all unworthy. No one is righteous not one---
MBG
 
Old 06-13-2007, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,796,945 times
Reputation: 5454
Blueberry wrote:
Quote:
I believe I'm in the minority of Christians for I'm not convinced all babies go to heaven. I believe children are sanctified through their parents.
Oh Blueberry, what are we going to do with you? It sounds like you're saying that a completely innocent newborn baby has not only inherited the parent's appearance but also inherited their beliefs. That is a truly strange concept. I can understand an unclean baby as a baby who needs a change of diapers but I can't understand "unclean" as a description of a baby's soul (not that I believe in souls).
I'm not flaming you for this but I do think you need to go to your room.
 
Old 06-13-2007, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 10,999,268 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
This is definitely one of those areas where I "see through a glass darkly." Ultimately, I'm not sure of certain aspects of Scripture. When it comes to heaven and babies and heathens who have never heard of Jesus, I will leave the decision to Jesus, the Righteous Judge. I fully trust Him to make the perfect decision. However, I also understand that His ways are not our ways, so that perfect decision may be inexplicable to us with our human limitations.
Yup it does sound confusing doesn't it? Like you I think He will make the right decision though.
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