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Old 05-22-2010, 12:52 PM
 
6,791 posts, read 4,069,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin.George View Post
Exactly...take the money they've been using to pay the preacher and build the churches, sell everything, oak and mahagony pews, carpeting ,stained glass, sound systems, musical instruments, sell the Vatican and all the billions of dollars worth of art there and feed the starving.

Whether anything else changes or not they should have to pay income taxes just like any other business.
I agree they should pay taxes...income, property, all of it!

But what's with this mindset that they shouldn't be allow to exist? Dismantled and sold off?...of course we have the obligatory "feed the starving" thrown in.

Typical intolerance. You are, what you condemn!

Why just the assets of religious organizations (sounds like you are focusing on the Catholics) getting "sold off" to "feed the starving"? How about corporations with skyscrapers full of luxury office suites and jets they don't need, getting sold off to feed starving people? What about rich athletes, actors, and musicians...that get paid millions for playing a game, playing a character, or singing a tune? Should they have mansions, collections of exotic sports cars, and Monet's hanging on the wall...while other people starve to death? Hell...let's go all the way!--Why should we drive autos, sit in nice houses, and own toys, computers and jewelry...while millions starve because they don't get three $.05 bowls of rice per day? We should sell off everything WE own WE don't REALLY NEED, and feed the starving with the money.

I submit...that organization you are talking about dismantling, has done more to help the disadvantaged and feed starving people than any organization EVER in the history of the world.
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Old 05-22-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Not yet
251 posts, read 373,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
i just wanted to put it out there that terrorism has nothing to do with islam. anything that islam teaches a muslim will follow meaning that just because someone claims to be or looks like a muslim and say suicide is ok in any wqy shape or form, this includes the killings of innocent people, it is no permissable. NO WHERE in the quran or any hadith does it say that these actions are permissable. if you want to know why those terrorist commit suicide or kill innocent peolple in the name of god (allah) then your guess os as good as mine because i dont know exactly why they do that and believe its permissable or even okay. its not. anyone who thinks that islam/muslims and terrorist go together has not researched the religion/way of life.

i just wanted to put that that out there because it upsets me that people think im a bad or even a horrible person just because of what i believe.


OK. This is what we repeat to non-Muslims here

Decision for theirs

may allah reward you
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:12 PM
 
2,958 posts, read 2,163,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I agree they should pay taxes...income, property, all of it!

But what's with this mindset that they shouldn't be allow to exist? Dismantled and sold off?...of course we have the obligatory "feed the starving" thrown in.

Typical intolerance. You are, what you condemn!

Why just the assets of religious organizations (sounds like you are focusing on the Catholics) getting "sold off" to "feed the starving"? How about corporations with skyscrapers full of luxury office suites and jets they don't need, getting sold off to feed starving people? What about rich athletes, actors, and musicians...that get paid millions for playing a game, playing a character, or singing a tune? Should they have mansions, collections of exotic sports cars, and Monet's hanging on the wall...while other people starve to death? Hell...let's go all the way!--Why should we drive autos, sit in nice houses, and own toys, computers and jewelry...while millions starve because they don't get three $.05 bowls of rice per day? We should sell off everything WE own WE don't REALLY NEED, and feed the starving with the money.

I submit...that organization you are talking about dismantling, has done more to help the disadvantaged and feed starving people than any organization EVER in the history of the world.
Oh I doubt that. But even if they have done a lot what's all this collecting expensive art works? What does the church need with that? What about all the jeweled smoke pots, candle holders, etc.? There's no telling what all the church has accumulated and guess what? Most of it was purchased with donated money...often by someone who was barely getting by themselves. I think the first time any of these so called rightious leaders accept money from a disabled widow they should be incarcerated and the key thrown away.
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Old 05-22-2010, 03:02 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin.George View Post
Why can't we all just admit that primitive mankind's dreams and aspirations were a major crock, drop all the afterlife BS and get along with one another?

I don't know and you don't either!
Why can't we all be bigots with an unreal view of history and human nature? Doesn't the question kind of answer itself?

For a more detailed answer there really hasn't been enough evolutionary/biological change in humans in the last 2-3 thousand years to justify the idea all dreams or ideas they had then can not possibly having bearing on modern humans. The Jews, Zoroastrians, early Christians, etc were not Neanderthal man. Also just because an idea is old does not make it wrong. You are engaging in the fallacy of novelty, the assumption that because an idea is more recent it must be right or that an old idea must be wrong. It can be shown as false through the following examples


Pythagorean theorem came from a time when people thought genetic abnormalities were omens and believed infectious disease came from bad air or the spirits. Therefore it's a crock. (However no sane person would reject Pythagorean theorem)

The alphabet was first developed by a primitive Semitic people who didn't have toilet paper or believe in a Round Earth. Therefore it's a crock. (However saying alphabetic writing is "a crock", although not a statement that can be proved one way or other, is basically goofball)

The idea of trial by jury came from a primitive people who had slaves and mistreated women. Therefore it's a crock.
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:20 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,102 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by imanway View Post
Excellent my brother

I wonder Now the world non-Muslim claim that Muslims are terrorists

While they are attacking on their land then Ask why Jihad?

it is for the payment your attacking


Today ,you find that suicide is only the violent reaction Some Muslims Nothing to do with Islam ...

Why the world western not condemn their state that attacking on the lives and blood of Muslims??????????????????????????????????????????? ?


They just are Condemned the Muslims who did not occupied to any non-Muslim state !!


imanway
You want to know who kills the most muslims.. other muslims.. there is a civil war going on in islam, which leads to thousands of muslim death each year.

Payment? Shell I blame you for the terrorist attracts? Then why are you blaming me for what other people do?
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:25 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,102 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
i just wanted to put it out there that terrorism has nothing to do with islam. anything that islam teaches a muslim will follow meaning that just because someone claims to be or looks like a muslim and say suicide is ok in any wqy shape or form, this includes the killings of innocent people, it is no permissable. NO WHERE in the quran or any hadith does it say that these actions are permissable. if you want to know why those terrorist commit suicide or kill innocent peolple in the name of god (allah) then your guess os as good as mine because i dont know exactly why they do that and believe its permissable or even okay. its not. anyone who thinks that islam/muslims and terrorist go together has not researched the religion/way of life.

i just wanted to put that that out there because it upsets me that people think im a bad or even a horrible person just because of what i believe.
Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Qur'an:8:57 "If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned."

Ishaq:326 "If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah's enemies."

Qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."

Ishaq:588 "When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves."

Tabari IX:42 "We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized."

Ishaq:326 "Allah said, 'No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.' Muhammad said, 'I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.'"

Ishaq:327 "Allah said, 'A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.'"

Qur'an:7:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them."

Ishaq:510 "When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, 'O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into terror they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.' He used to say this of every town he raided."

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, 'Allahu-Akbar!' [Allah is Greatest] Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.' Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives."

Bukhari:V9B87N127 "The Prophet said, 'I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.'"

Ishaq:517 "Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle's squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust."

Tabari VIII:116
Ishaq:511 "So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself."

Prophet of Doom
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Old 05-22-2010, 05:10 PM
 
6,791 posts, read 4,069,569 times
Reputation: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin.George View Post
Oh I doubt that. But even if they have done a lot what's all this collecting expensive art works? What does the church need with that? What about all the jeweled smoke pots, candle holders, etc.? There's no telling what all the church has accumulated and guess what? Most of it was purchased with donated money...often by someone who was barely getting by themselves. I think the first time any of these so called rightious leaders accept money from a disabled widow they should be incarcerated and the key thrown away.
You just don't get it, do ya? What does ANYBODY need with an abundance while others suffer?!! Should I say YOU should be thrown in jail for life because you were soooooooo selfish to buy a computer, or a car, or a 15th pair of shoes...or WHATEVER it is you don't REALLY need...while some disabled widow sits in a freezing cold trailer eating a crust of stale bread, because she has no money for fuel oil or food?!!

That widow could probably turn to the church for help...and have a lot better chance of getting it than from ANYWHERE else. Christian missions run more food pantries and soup kitchens than all other organizations put together. I know...I've been donating to them for years...and putting in time helping at the relief centers. Some of the most caring, loving, selfless, most generous people I ever met, I meet at those places. Some work for YEARS...for NOTHING!!! It's my PRIVILEGE to know them. They would help that widow in a second. Fill her fuel oil tank, and BRING her meals. And send some dudes over to fix her broken steps and give her a ride to her doctors appointment. They do that kind of stuff ALL the time...all over the WORLD. I will call them on the bad stuff...but I won't hesitate to give them props for the good stuff they do.

Could they...SHOULD they, do more?...of course. We ALL, can and should do more. What YOU been doing lately Bro!! How much time do you put in helping others? How much of a percentage of YOUR scratch do you donate? Ever buy any frivolous item, while you know tens of thousands die from starvation every day? Yeah...I'm sure you're right there with Mother Theresa...who came from that organization you are running down. Give me a break...who are you to talk smack about organizations that actually DO help feed starving people and assist the poor and sick of the world?

Last edited by GldnRule; 05-22-2010 at 05:25 PM..
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Old 05-22-2010, 05:18 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
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I'm loathe to read the Qur'an in English, but seeing as I drew a cartoon of Muhammad (a pleasant one of him smiling) I guess I'm not really respecting their rules as is. So here's some context for the quotes you cite.

Qur'an 8:12-14 - [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. "That [is yours], so taste it." And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.



Qur'an:8:54-57 - [Theirs is] like the custom of the people of Pharaoh and of those before them. They denied the signs of their Lord, so We destroyed them for their sins, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh. And all [of them] were wrongdoer. Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe - The ones with whom you made a treaty but then they break their pledge every time, and they do not fear Allah. So if you, [O Muhammad], gain dominance over them in war, disperse by [means of] them those behind them that perhaps they will be reminded.

Qur'an 8:67-71 - It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah 's enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, you would have been touched for what you took by a great punishment. So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. O Prophet, say to whoever is in your hands of the captives, "If Allah knows [any] good in your hearts, He will give you [something] better than what was taken from you, and He will forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." But if they intend to betray you - then they have already betrayed Allah before, and He empowered [you] over them. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

So pretty tough stuff even with verses surrounding, but it can be said to show forgiveness for those with "good hearts" and focus on attacking people who betray you or actively oppose the faith.

I think Islam is a violent religion in a way Buddhism and Christianity are not. However Hinduism has many verses that say people of certain castes are required to make war and the Hebrew Bible contains admonitions toward violence not that unlike the Qur'an. Many Hindus and Jews see these as allegorical or that they refer to a specific time and situation which is no longer relevant. I certainly know of Muslims who believe that in Muhammad's time certain things were necessary that are no longer necessary or see the "terror to non-believers" in merely spiritual terms. "Hell for non-believers" is a bit harsh, but it's not unheard of among Baptists or Calvinists or conservative Lutherans or even some Japanese Buddhists.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:03 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,950,506 times
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Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Flawed logic...based on the reality of history. How do you account for the fact some of the most evil stuff ever done...was done by nonreligious dictators??
Actually according to the book you put your faith in, your deity is the worst of the worst, murdering a documented 2,000,000+ and another 8,000,000 or so where body counts are not specific.

Lets see, George Bush started two wars because in his delusion he believed god told him to. He called it a crusade, the other side jihad. You need to really watch the evening news more often.
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Old 05-22-2010, 09:07 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
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islam is not a part of terrorism??? hmmm is terrorisim part of islam?? jihad.??
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