Another company leaves downtown due to parking (Jacksonville, Miami: houses, construction)

[jsimms3]

Thanks Fsquid, didn't do my research on what the 9 were, just assumed they were mostly financial related and I assumed Duke Energy was one. I knew Wachovia was building the now Duke Energy Center, but I am happy that Duke took several hundred thousand square feet.

By the way, where is the Lowe's Motor Speedway (I know it goes by another name now)? Crescent Resources is also out of the game in Charlotte. They went bankrupt and had a huge development arm that essentially aquired other development companies and as a result they have 16 golf course communities in N/Central FL including the Hampton communities developed by Landmar and some communities in Palm Coast. The communities are all doing fine, though, and they are up for sale (undeveloped lots and the golf courses).

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

I agree with some of your points. I'm no city planner - but it seems to me that a primary goal for a place like downtown JAX should have been holding onto and adding jobs. Lots of them. I don't know what efforts were made in this regard over the decades. But - judging from the results - any efforts were a complete failure. Jobs were more important IMO than the sports stadium - the convention center - the library - the FTU complex - the hotels - etc. (all things on which a lot of current and future money was spent). Because jobs put people in a place for at least 40 hours a week. You can't have retail or restaurants without a solid steady base of customers.

I disagree with your assessment of northern and other cities vis-a-vis JAX to some extent. Some northern cities do have nice cores - but they are usually only for rich people (to live) or day workers or tourists. The apartment that I rented in Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia for $280/month is now a condo - a little under $400k for 600 sf. My niece is renting a slightly larger place in a luxury high rise in Brooklyn for about $2200/month. I don't disagree that these are interesting urban cores. But how many people can afford them (I could afford them - but couldn't live comfortably in 600-1500 sf these days)?

Yeah, I've noticed thats a trend in southern cores that are trying to better themselves. Putting the cart before the horse. Meaning building a bunch of condos & other landmarks before there are even any people actually living downtown. You cant just have that stuff & nothing else (no groceries, no transportation, no shopping, etc). Then they wonder why all those condos sit empty. That just shows you they don't understand urban planning & development. You have to play up to a certain demographic first (usually the poorer, younger adventurous generation that want to be different), then worry about the expensive high rise condos & such for the families or older folks.

And northern cities are indeed more expensive in their urban cores, but you also have to realize that part of that reason is because there are hardly ANY places like this in the entire country, so they can charge a premium for it. Also the jobs pay more & are much more plentiful. And most of the time, you can go without a car & just use a bike and/or public transportation. People dont realize how much money they save by not owning a car, but its significant. So I've learned you really have to factor in everything in order to get a more accurate living expense ratio, not just look at rent prices (which can look shocking), but thats only half the story.

For instance, we were living comfortably in a 700 sq ft apartment in DC before here for $2000 a month opposed to paying a little more than half that to live here in Jax in a bigger house. BUT here's the kicker, we didnt drive at all there, neither one of us. And our electric bill was practically nothing (opposed to a whopping $300+ here, more in the summer months when its hot as hell & it has to run non-stop).

So you have to factor in everything. More money for jobs up there, more job choices & less blowing our wads on BS like keeping 2 cars on the roads & trying to keep this house at a decent temperature. Its a lot.

[Robyn55]

There are apartments too - like 11 Forsyth (which was the Symphony "House" one year). Think the owners got some kind of money from JAX for that. But I thought it was overpriced for what it was - and I think the project has had financial problems.

Agree with picking a demographic group to target - and the demographic group you suggest.

You're right that total costs are what count. We never had more than 1800 sf before we moved here. But we lived in condos. Maintenance was kind of high due to high insurance costs in south Florida. Our utilities in Miami cost about what our utilities cost when we first moved here - average of perhaps $250/month - even though we have 2800 sf under A/C here. But they average about $400-450/month now (electric costs in Florida have almost doubled in the last 15 years - and water costs have more than tripled due to use based pricing). We always had one car when we were working (even in Philadelphia) - two when we first retired - back to one now. Our costs are lower here than in south Florida - but our major savings were almost all in insurance costs (health - auto - homeowners) and property taxes. South Florida has some of the highest insurance rates in the whole country - and very high property taxes for Florida. Our costs for those things would probably go up 30-40% were we to move back to south Florida today (even my husband's Medigap policy would cost 40% more).

FWIW - I haven't lived in 700 sf for almost 40 years. But could get by with fewer sf when I was working (and doing little at home except sleeping and going to the bathroom). Being retired now - we spend a lot more time at home - and enjoy the extra room (we each have a home office - and actually use our kitchen ).

What do you think it costs to have a car? Know it depends on the kind of car - and how long you keep it - but I figure at least $5k/year. We got rid of our second car last year because we were putting less than 3,000 miles a year on the second car. Didn't make any sense to keep it. Robyn

[JBtwinz]

Duke Energy, Landmar, Crescent Resources and Charlotte, North Carolina all tie into Downtown Jacksonville in regards to the Shipyards project and properties in Fernandina and a hopeless pipe dream project in downtown Saint Mary's Georgia. Right now as of today there is a three year surplus of lots in unfinfinished subdivisions in all of Florida. It's amazing all of the speculative spinoff's. I see no difference between these guys and a ponzi scheme.

Check out the link for the Duke Energy tie in:

Crescent Resources v Duke Energy

[JBtwinz]

Originally Posted by JBtwinz

Duke Energy, Landmar, Crescent Resources and Charlotte, North Carolina all tie into Downtown Jacksonville in regards to the Shipyards project and properties in Fernandina and a hopeless pipe dream project in downtown Saint Mary's Georgia. Right now as of today there is a three year surplus of lots in unfinfinished subdivisions in all of Florida. It's amazing all of the speculative spinoff's. I see no difference between these guys and a ponzi scheme.

Check out the link for the Duke Energy tie in:

Crescent Resources v Duke Energy

Did not mean to hijack thread, it is just ironic how a Charlotte company that was being mentioned almost brought much needed development to downtown Jacksonville!

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by jsimms3

Robyn I like your assessment 4 posts up. I agree with much of it and I can see how you feel that way about the cities you mentioned. My mom's cousin lives on Lake Travis next to Sandra Bullock (outside of Austin), though I have never been there I have seen pictures and I have studied Austin extensively, looks like an interesting place though I don't think it would be my cup of tea...

If you have family where you can stay for free - find a cheap air fare and take a look see. Austin is a fun 3-4 day area. Apart from the stuff to see in Austin - it's less than 30 minutes from the BBQ capital of Texas - Lockhart. Where one can have a "browsing lunch" at some of the best BBQ restaurants in the world. I developed a taste for BBQ "fatty brisket" on our trip there.

And if you can hunt up family or a cheap place to stay in Dallas - or friends who will share hotel/motel rooms/car rental with you (I know you're a student and are watching pennies) - you can turn it into a 6 day trip. My recollections of Dallas range from the Nasher Sculpture Museum to Japanese tourists in cowboy hats in Fort Worth .

My husband and I often do these little week or so US trips - and the Austin/Dallas one was a good one. Robyn

[jsimms3]

Been to Dallas twice (and one time stayed at the super tacky but super ritzy Hotel Zaza in Uptown...I was not allowed to be in the lobby after 8:00 p.m. because I was under 21 and they didn't accept my fake LoL even though I was a paying guest...will never go back to that place!). I do not care for Dallas, I think the majority of what I saw was bland and too flat and too "weird" looking for me and downtown Dallas was deader than downtown Jax!! Highland Park/University Park/Preston Hollow is a beautiful area, but even if I had the money I still wouldn't live in Dallas because of the rest of it. Couldn't stand the people either. The women are so fake/plastic and hitched onto men 20-30-40 years older than them and I didn't like the vibe. I like a more intelligent sounding/sophisticated/more liberal and modern girl myself that doesn't feel the need to max out all my credit cards at a mall buying poofy colorful dresses and giant hats. It's like the Stepford Wives where all those women are so out there and then Nicole Kidman is more refined/business like/you get the picture.


And yes 11 East has had to have their loan from the city modified because they have run into some troubles (not huge troubles but troubles nonetheless). That's Vestcor who also did the Carling and many other projects around town. It is run by John Rood who is considered a great guy by all who know him and he served as G.W.'s Bahamian ambassador (they had just moved to Nassau when Hurricane Francis hit as a cat 4 like a month later LoL).

11 East is a great project that would have worked well in almost any other city. On a per square foot basis I cannot consider it expensive, but it is considered expensive for what Jacksonville is used to. I knew someone who lived on the 17th floor there and let me tell you it was nice nice nice. Unfortunately there isn't much downtown for residents and there is less of a young professional class in this city than other cities who are trying to live that lifestyle and the city does literally nothing to help the process along and create a more vibrant downtown where young professionals can easily justify the costs. The Peninsula would have been filled with gay couples, Tech students whose parents are simultaneously making an investment, and young single professionals had it been located in Midtown Atlanta. Of course in Jacksonville it's filled with retired couples, investors who don't even live there, and middle-aged small families who simply prefer the condo lifestyle. It is a *great* building with all the amenities, I mean all. There is a roof top terrace/lounge with some of the best views of town. The Strand next door is in a similar fashion, though because it is rentals it has more young single professionals.

Downtown leaders need to get rid of DVI (which hurts more than helps) and make it much easier on small business owners to open up shop. The parking needs to be fixed and draconian laws that actually even prevent signs need to be abolished throughout downtown (tacky neon light signs are better than no signs at all, and more lights, glitz, and glamour downtown = a more pedestrian friendly and inviting experience). East Bay Street now allows sidewalk seating and decorative/useful protrusions that help the bars/clubs there. The sidewalks are also wider. This needs to be allowed all through out downtown. Small business owners who want to open up shop downtown should also be given a complete tax break for 5 or 10 years (it's not like they would contribute significantly to the overall tax base anyway). This will make it more attractive for independents to open up stores, bars, and restaurants. Once more independents provide more amenities for residents and visitors, more residential will more easily be built. Eventually after enough residential is built and due to a very pro-business environment, the chains will start coming in (chain retailers, restaurants, and chain bars/clubs). Whiskey River, Blackfinn, and Suite are all bars/clubs in Uptown Charlotte. They are small investor chains because other locations have been opened up, including here at the SJTC. If our downtown were in better shape they would have gone there.

Finally once downtown is more of a destination and there is a larger critical mass downtown and in the surrounding neighborhoods (I offer my suggestions for that further up), then companies will see much more value in locating downtown and putting their name on a building. Maybe we'll even get a few more office buildings out of it. A higher office employment downtown will also spur more investments and more employees will either live there or stay there for some time after work to have a drink or eat out.

The goal is that eventually like in many other cities downtown will be self sustaining and be the central "hub" for which all other spokes radiate, and we can start charging regular ad valorem taxes again because businesses downtown will find it worth it to pay them. In a healthy city with a healthy downtown, the highest chunk of ad valorem taxes comes from downtown. Of course these taxes go to fund new roads and better/new schools in the suburbs and technically downtowns help sustain the entire city. This actually used to be the case in Jacksonville until the mid-1990s when something as high as a quarter of all tax collections came from downtown. Now that number is less than 10%. We wonder how we can increase the city's budget and pay for more growth, more incentives to bring businesses to town, and for better schools. The answer does not lie in sprawling out. The answer lies in a thriving downtown that can help support the rest of the city and provide the city with an identity/place of context and meaning.

Long answer to a complicated issue, but for politicians here it is too difficult to explain this to an otherwise ill informed citizenry and even some of the politicians don't get it. Spending money on downtown or at least getting downtown back on track by forgoing taxation and harmful regulation for a short while can repair and dramatically increase the city's budget in the long term. There are proven ways other cities have done so and the results are the proof in the pudding that it is worth it.

[fsquid]

Lowe's Motor Speedway is located in Concord, NC which is a suburb Northeast of Charlotte.

[fsu813]

wow you people love long answers

[jsimms3]

Yea...sorry...I wish we could live chat LoL and then it would be more back and forth...I like reading long answers though, too, so I have either all my questions answered or something bulky to respond to.