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Old 10-29-2010, 02:10 AM
 
1,255 posts, read 3,471,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimms3 View Post
Well JBtwinz, my point was that the native suburbanites here really DON'T understand and the transplants ditch that lifestyle to live the suburban lifestyle here, and they don't seem to care. I am pretty active with a lot of organizations and players in Jax, and they aren't comprised of very many people from the suburbs or many transplants. Also, like I said in another thread, there are realtors here who won't even show inner city neighborhoods like San Marco, Riverside, or Avondale, and insist on only showing St. Johns County, Baymeadows, ICW, or the Beach.

And you waiting isn't going to help. Write JTA, attend meetings, elect better City Councilmen (there's the biggest evidence of apathy on the part of the majority of the city), and talk to your city councilman. There are too many people who either don't want what I and others describe, don't realize what good an urban environment is because they haven't experienced it (many natives of Jax have really not traveled extensively or lived elsewhere), or they are just waiting. Get involved!! Your "waiting" is proof in the pudding.

Also, if you couldn't afford urban living in a larger city, our core is cheaper than those larger cities' suburbs and cuts down your transportation costs that you would incur here in Jax, so why not live in the core? Another proof.
No offense, but for what its worth I'm pretty much backing up everything JBtwinz has said in this thread & I think he/she makes the most sense as to why things are the way they are here.

And I absolutely do not agree that the transplanted suburbanites here dont care about this or other urban cores. Thats sort of a cop-out to say that & I think you're not being fair to people outside of your own small clique of urbanites who automatically thinks everyone outside the core must be stupid or just not understand.

Between my wife & I, we've probably lived in more real urban settings than most here in Jax & we live in the 'burbs. Are we in love with it? Hell no, but whats the alternative?? Live in a ghost town-like downtown with nothing to do, nowhere to eat, shop, no people, etc?? I dont think so. There's something like less than 6K population living downtown (in the 32202 zip code) & hasnt been growing in the last decade AT ALL. That's simply pathetic, esp for the size Jax is. Those numbers are pretty staggering for the size that Jax is & for that length of time. So "why not just live in the core"?? Because it sucks & isnt worth it. People would rather live in the sticks here where there's actually something to do & places to at least go shop & eat with people around. Again, not my cup of tea & I didn't make it that way, but thats just the way it is.

And look, its not up to us regular individuals to make something outta nothing if most of the population & city officials arent behind it or don't care. We arent all bright eyed, fresh outta college single people who can devote that much time to something like this. We have families to raise, jobs to go to, food to keep on the table. Its not our place to do that, its the city officials, planners, businesses, etc. If they & the population in general have no vision & are content with the way things are, you really have nothing to build on. If you were in a much smaller town that was way more manageable, then maybe. But not for a city of this size thats already pretty much decided on what type of town its going to be.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:04 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,079 posts, read 6,088,623 times
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Look nobody is saying "live downtown". Even those of us who live "closer" to downtown don't live in 32202 for the same reasons. And nobody is saying all suburbanites are dumb or don't know what an urban environment is or how it can be beneficial and why Jax should pursue one. What I was saying is there is a mix of apathy, which I will still say is rampant among suburbanite transplants from what I have noticed, a desire to not be urban (so many transplants specifically move here to retire in a resort type neighborhood or to get away from the crowded northern urban environments), or a lack of knowledge on city planning/urban design/transit planning from a swath of people from city officials to suburbanites to even urbanites who aren't knowledgeable about this stuff either. Many natives of Jacksonville have barely ever even left the city to experience other city environments (and this city is half natives, half transplants). These are simple observations that are hard to debate.

Also, when the city, including all the transplants, averages anywhere from 10-25% voter participation in city council and mayoral elections, one can only conclude that there is a large amount of apathy. Even when the BJP was passed and the half penny SPLOST tax was voted in, a very small percentage of voters even participated. There have been some good people who have run for various positions, so "no good candidates" is not an excuse. Also, JTA and the city hold meetings fairly frequently to either gather citizen input or to explain a new project. Many times these meetings are not very full and usually only people who live within 3 miles of town go, even if the project is going to impact the burbs.

I understand the raising a family part; I will be there myself, but it's not like young people aren't busy and there aren't families being raised in the core. The CEO of Everbank has a family of 6 and finds time to be a major investor/participator downtown. Over 150 business leaders/city leaders went to Indianapolis 2 weeks ago, and most of the biz leaders of course were residents of the 3 neighborhoods I already said: Ortega, Avondale, San Marco. The city IS slowly turning around, but I think it can be quicker with more people involved. At the very least people can keep up with one of 5 Jacksonville specific blog/websites like MetroJacksonville.

There are ways to get involved without living downtown. Raising a family and having a job is no excuse not to vote, not to check in on Jax specific websites, not to attend any meetings, not to email your city representative or email JTA, bla bla bla. None of these things is overwhelmingly exhausting or time consuming and they are important. "Wanting" better is not enough, and "waiting" will not get us there.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:31 PM
 
1,255 posts, read 3,471,166 times
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Granted all of that, but dude. Its the south & its usually how things are ran here. I don't like it anymore than you do, but its like you said. People either come down here to get away from the hustle & bustle, or they're natives who just think this is the way a city is supposed to be cause they dont know any better. And I see nothing that tells me this will change for a very long time.

Honestly, my advice would be to not stress over it & just accept it for what it is, or possible explore the idea of moving to a place that has more going on. If you want movers & shakers, thats gonna be up north & out west. Wish it wasnt like that, but I myself have pretty much accepted it.

What it boils down to is a lifestyle gamble. You could stick around Jax & hope it becomes what you want, or just go to a place that already has what you want. Sure, you might get lucky & Jax will actually start making major strides (not likely, but always a chance), but that's a hell of a gamble IMO when you're talking about your livelihood. We only have so much time.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,617 posts, read 21,379,006 times
Reputation: 6793
You never know what will happen in places (although I agree with you that anyone moving here expecting the next Chicago shouldn't hold his breath). I don't agree with your dissing of the south in general though. What about the north and the west? There are tons of suburbs in those places too. My brother used to live in a suburb in Portland. I doubt he ever went to a cultural event there (he's a doctor - kind of busy - he lives in Thousand Oaks CA now - ditto for the cultural stuff). We visited a friend in Los Angeles last year who lives on Mulholland Drive (easy walking area if you're a retired donkey who used to work the Grand Canyon ). The people we know who used to live in San Francisco have left (they don't like the school lottery and the bums).

Certainly every major metro area up north that has an old (very expensive) downtown has suburbs that extend for miles and miles (like as far as JAX to Green Cove Springs or more). And the people we know up there - except for a couple of really close friends or family members - don't want to visit us (by train) when we're in places like Manhattan. They think it's a PITA to get there.

I am not sure about moving to a place you think is "perfect" when you're in your 20's. Although I do suggest moving to a place that offers really good jobs in your field. I suspect that's why you're here - the job thing. Because otherwise - considering how unhappy you seem to be - you should be taking a dose of the medicine you're prescribing for Simms.

Also note that after 15 years here - I am not 100% happy either. I miss really good restaurants (hard to find anywhere in Florida) - and decent shopping. But my husband and I usually go to big cities about 3 times a year and get our "fix". We can afford a much nicer life-style on our trips to big cities than we could afford if we lived in the places we visit.

FWIW - I don't know anything about you except your age. Marital status - kids - work - not a clue. But if you want to feel a little happier about living here - there are some very nice trips to take - one or two nights - or long weekends. We'll be heading up to Atlanta next month - a long weekend - for some cultural stuff - and some really excellent restaurants. You might do some little deal trips in the spring for things like azalea and camellia season (you're probably too young to have an interest in gardening - but you have to have some interests - right?). And Florida is really quite an excellent state if you explore it in depth. Even a middle aged lady like me whose favorite haunt is Bloomingdales has taken some wonderful canoe trips in fairly isolated areas not that far from here. It's really not that bad here - honest. Give it a chance (especially if you have kids - kids love all the outdoor activities). Robyn

P.S. If you start a thread about what to do here - I'll be glad to tell you everything I know. I've lived in Florida for almost 40 years now (and used to do some things that I can no longer do - like scuba diving).
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:19 AM
 
1,255 posts, read 3,471,166 times
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Who's dissing the south?? I just said its best to go to a place that actually offers most of the things you're looking for instead of hoping & wishing it would come to the city/region you're currently in. Didn't say anything about being a "perfect" place either. Just one that has more of what you're looking for. Life's way too short to just settle. Didn't say anything about me personally or that I was "unhappy". Just said I had accepted Jax for what it is & I'm not holding my breath. Don't read into things that arent there.

And people probably didnt want to visit you by train in Manhattan because it was a foreign concept to them & seemed like a headache. So of course if they're coming from a more car oriented surrounding to a city that practically hates the car, then they're prob not gonna like that if they're just visiting. I'd prob think the same thing if I didn't know any better too. America is a pretty car-centric place & people arent used to these things. You take away some people's cars & they're likely to freak out a bit.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
3,528 posts, read 8,238,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryB View Post
Between my wife & I, we've probably lived in more real urban settings than most here in Jax & we live in the 'burbs. Are we in love with it? Hell no, but whats the alternative?? Live in a ghost town-like downtown with nothing to do, nowhere to eat, shop, no people, etc?? I dont think so.
You do realize that Riverside, San Marco & Springfield...and all thier numerous cafes, resuarants, shops, botiques, events, amenities, etc would be about 3 miles or less away if you lived in he middle of downtown, right?

That's not counting all the various places that are actually in downtown.

The average subrubanite drives further than 3 miles to get to a most of these places in the 'burbs, certainly a collection of them.

I chose not to live in downtown either, because it's not populated enough at the moment for my wife, but there certainly isn't a lack of commerical options, events, or amenties with in a few mile radius - there's more than almost anywhere else in the city, in fact. And i'd wager that the quality of the commerical options, events, and amenties far, far outpaces any other part of the city.


Just food for thought.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Amelia Island
4,793 posts, read 5,960,388 times
Reputation: 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsu813 View Post
You do realize that Riverside, San Marco & Springfield...and all thier numerous cafes, resuarants, shops, botiques, events, amenities, etc would be about 3 miles or less away if you lived in he middle of downtown, right?

That's not counting all the various places that are actually in downtown.

The average subrubanite drives further than 3 miles to get to a most of these places in the 'burbs, certainly a collection of them.

I chose not to live in downtown either, because it's not populated enough at the moment for my wife, but there certainly isn't a lack of commerical options, events, or amenties with in a few mile radius - there's more than almost anywhere else in the city, in fact. And i'd wager that the quality of the commerical options, events, and amenties far, far outpaces any other part of the city.


Just food for thought.
Your point, I have been here for the past 21 years and you still do not have enough to make it sustainable for a realistic population of people to live IN downtown as you say. I see you comments about the suburbs dying and urban living growing. Really, what do you call Avondale, Springfield and Riverside? They exist with a diminishing urban core or cental city, they are nothing more than older suburbs not so-called urban living. Lets be honest, if I were living IN downtown I would not comfortable feel walking the three mile radius to visit the commercial enterprise's or entertainment venues in daytime and definitely not after dark.


The Urban Core: Generally the urban core or the inner city is in the central city.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,617 posts, read 21,379,006 times
Reputation: 6793
Quote:
You do realize that Riverside, San Marco & Springfield...and all thier numerous cafes, resuarants, shops, botiques, events, amenities, etc would be about 3 miles or less away if you lived in he middle of downtown, right?...
I think the "stuff" in the greater JAX area is really scattered all over. For example - the FTU Center is downtown - but there are plenty of excellent events at the UNF Fine Arts Center - the Wilson Center at FCCJ too. If one has particular interests - it's frequently necessary to drive to events that deal with those interests - because they're all over the place.

And look at non-professional sports activities like golf and tennis and soccer and baseball and football and the like - whether for adults or kids. There are a lot of competitions which will take you (or your kids) from one end of the metro area to the other (when I played women's league tennis - we'd have matches in a geographical area between Riverside and the St. Augustine beaches). IMO - getting involved with league sports that cover a large geographical area is a great way to learn about the metro area (there are too many people here who won't leave their little neighborhoods - no matter where those neighborhoods are).

Note that in all the talk of various neighborhoods here - I don't hear a lot of discussions about sports. Yet I think one of the primary attractions of most of Florida (including here) is the ability to be outside and active most of the year.

OTOH - I think people should live relatively close to where they spend most of their time (like work). Commuting at rush hour usually isn't any fun anywhere (including here). Robyn
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Old 10-30-2010, 01:33 PM
 
1,255 posts, read 3,471,166 times
Reputation: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsu813 View Post
You do realize that Riverside, San Marco & Springfield...and all thier numerous cafes, resuarants, shops, botiques, events, amenities, etc would be about 3 miles or less away if you lived in he middle of downtown, right?
Of course, but they're not exactly well connected & I'd still need to drive to each of them. And they're on 3 separate axises divided by the river, so they're spread out from each other in a triangle pattern. Its just not easy to do & I'd end up doing the same things I'm already doing now.

Trust me, I've thought of this stuff a bunch. Now, if you took what was in all 3 of those areas & squished them into one condensed area, then we might be onto something. Or, if the city would actually do something useful & extend that boondoggle Skyway all the way down through Riverside, up to Springfield & further down San Marco, that would matter too.

I do agree with JB that I wouldn't exactly call these areas part of the "core" anymore than I would anywhere else outside of the actual downtown. Perhaps Springfield since Main runs through it, but its more "uptown". I think it was even treated as a suburb after the downtown fire when they were building the place way back in the day.

Riverside, Avondale, San Marco, definitely not. More like historic suburbs that are core-accessible. Thats not really what defines an "urban core". Anyways, its not like any of this technical stuff really matters, especially when the "city of Jacksonville" encompasses so much land.
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:02 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,079 posts, read 6,088,623 times
Reputation: 933
Technicalities aside everyone here is right. The biggest problem we are facing right now is the stupid repping system on this City-Data site. I would like to rep a couple people here and a few people on the Atlanta forum, and the site says I must spread the love around for everyone. How many freakin people do I need to rep that I don't necessarily want to rep before I can rep those that I want to? And since when was City-Data repping all about fairness? LoL it's just like modern day parenting and Democrat policies: "fairness". It's baloney, I only read a few threads that talk about one thing and there are only so many people who post on them. Really my reps were for a couple of posts in other threads (coincidentally the same people), but why not these last few posts? Geez I guess I'll have to sidestep into the cat lovers forum and find someone I haven't repped before, before I can rep those I want to.
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