Lesson for Jacksonville Planners: Urban living is the future (Springfield: lease, daycare)

[thatguydownsouth]

"An urban area is characterized by higher population density and vast human features in comparison to the areas surrounding it"

This is what people mean when they say an area is urban. Come on now. Urban area doesnt mean it is a City within itself.

Urban area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[thatguydownsouth]

"An urban area is characterized by higher population density and vast human features in comparison to the areas surrounding it"

This is what people mean when they say an area is urban. Come on now. Urban area doesnt mean it is a City within itself.

Urban area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[projectmaximus]

Riverside is far more urbanized by your definition than Avondale. Unless by Avondale you actually mean Riverside.

That said, I'd also agree with the notion that there's NO truly urban experience in Jacksonville.

[fsu813]

Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth

Id consider myself one of the young, educated, and successful people in Jax. What Ive noticed is most of my friends/colleagues are buying in St Johns County. Homes in Jax are royally scewed up for the $. Youre basically paying a premium to be far from the shady areas. There arent any entry level homes in safe areas. If youre in the 100k to 200k ballpark, then youre buying on the Westside, in a very old neighborhood, or in areas like Arlington. If youre 200k to 250k youre in a better area, but still close to shady areas. You need 300k to be in a safe area with newer houses. This is what I was running across when homebuying. We ended up on the Southside paying 230k for a house, and its still across the street from a questionable apartment complex.

As far as urban life goes, Jax isnt urban, its suburban. Avondale is about the only area here that I would really call urban.

If you are looking for something that specific:

1) A new construction house
2) Not any where close to a "shady area".
3) $100-$200 price tag

You are right, there aren't that many options. You'd look to Mandarin, the new housing developments on the Northside near the airport, and the generic suburbs off Kernan for areas like that.

However, that's very specific criteria. And most people are ok living relatively near an area that's "shady" as long as it doens't impact them very much.

In fact, Jacksonville's hottest neighborhood has a good bit of "shady" in and around it: the Riverside & Avondale historic district.

Furthermore, most people are ok with having an older house (why wouldn't you be?) if it's nice.

I think you're issue is that you have a misconception on what's "safe" and what's not. Murray Hill and the Springfield historic district, for example, are Jacksonville's best examples of transitional, gentrtifying neighborhoods right now. They are safe, in that residents don't worry about their personal safety, but there's a still a fair amount of nusiance crimes (ie, stolen bikes, stolen item out of shed, etc). This is still the case in Riverside too, though it's rapidly moving into a higher bracket of gentrification and out of the transitional neighborhood label (Not coincidentally, you can find agreat house in Murray Hill for around $100k or so, a great house in the Springfield historic district for $150-$250k, and a great house in Riverside for $250k-$350k). The thing is, if you move to most big cities, nusiance crimes come with the territoty. They are mostly preventable, so residents don't get too worked about them. And, of course, these kinds of things happen everywhere in cities & towns, just at a higher rate than in the subrubs (because there's more density, and the design of the older communtiies are walkable therefore more personal interaction). If you consider Murray Hill or the Springfield historic district "unsafe" then there's the rub. That's your opinion, but JSO and the middle-class & above residents that choose to live there over other areas would say otherwise. And they would know. Or they'd be moving elsewhere.

A few notes:

- The vast majority of big cities have older communities surronding Downtown. This is standard. Old = near Downtown, new = subrubs.
- Again, most cities there are "good" and "bad" areas close to one another. This is also standard.
- There's new construction availble in Jacksonville's old neighborhoods. There's a fair bit going up in Riverside right now (Lydia Street), and many new construction starts are planned in the Springfield historic district (JWB, Low Country Classics, Terra Wise Homes, etc). So you can have the best of both worlds, per se.
- Avondale is not urban....at all.

I think it's safe to say you don't have a good grasp on some established norms in Jacksonville.

But, everyone has an opinion. And the internet is easy to use. So....that's a combination for interesting perspectives.

[fsu813]

Originally Posted by sweat209

fsu813 you cannot compare citities in florida to New York , Chicago , Los Angeles ,Philadelphia or Baltimore or Dallas.

Cities in Florida are too new being post ww2 car ownership/midle class that own car very much so south east Florida .If you looking for older cities in Florida more urban try Miami ,Tampa or Jacksonville that has more of big town feel than suburb feel.

But you still cannot compare those citities.Do you honestly think New York , Chicago , Los Angeles ,Philadelphia or Baltimore or Dallas will look like that today !!! if it had population of 100 people and starting way after post www2 .

I was citing an article.

I would compare Jacksonville with Atlanta, Charlotte, Tampa, Nashville, Biringham, Greenville, Austin, and San Diego, depending on the catagory or topic.

Charlotte is the most comparable.

[fsu813]

Originally Posted by tacosman

I've only visited the area once so far(but I saw all of it).....where is this 'urban area' in Jacksonville? What some are referring to as an 'urban area' is the suburbs!! If someone who lives in Avondale actually believes they are participating in 'urban living', that is very sad.......

Now are those areas closer to what is known as 'downtown'? I guess...but downtown in Jacksonville is so meaningless(and has been for so long and will continue to be possibly forever) that even this is a meaningless distinction. And even if downtown does become something other than a dead zone in 2 decades, it's not like they are walking distance(for the most part) anyways....

If someone truly wants urban living and it is important to them, they obviously need to move. Staying in jville area under those circumstances would be like someone who loves warm weather moving to Minneapolis and insisting global warming is coming soon and Minnesota is about to be a perfect temp for them.

Another big difference is the income/education levels of people near downtown, exurbs, suburbs, etc.....in some place like Atlanta you have physicians, dentists, small business owners, successful lawyers, excecutives, etc pay a premium to move to Va highlands or inman park rather than have a bigger really nice house in the true burbs. But here what I'm seeing is that people with incomes above 200k who are upper middle class take a different approach...they are more spread out and don't flock to any one place. PVB is appealing for some, larger house in the newer sprawl communities like Nocatee are appealing to some, the beaches for some, and yes a few do live in San Marco or Avondale or whatever(but for the upper middle class these aren't destination spots similar to Va highlands is to the same group around Atlanta).....

You are greatly misinformed.

Trust me, there are many, many relatively successful people who live in the genral Downtown area other than Avondale & San Marco (heard or Riverside, Springfield, or Downtown itself?).

No these are not desitnation spots on par with VA Highlands, you are correct. But people with means choose to live there, and continue to do so, for a reason.

I find that most people who think Downtown has nothing going on are just simply unaware of what's going on there. There are portions of Downtown that are dead zones and there are portions that have activity, so it just depends.

Here's a list of things you may not be aware of:

New cigar lounge opening on Ocean Street.
New 1902's style bar & lounge just opened on Adams Street (The Volstead).
New arts studio & lounge set to open on Adams Street.
New nice restuarant & offices starting renovation work on Forsyth Street.
New high end office furntiure supplier just opened a corner space on Hogans Street 9Work Space).
New Chase Bank branch is opening on Laura Street.
New apartments (renovation) are being put in on Laura Street (next to Chablin's Uptown)
New cafe is opening on Broad Street across from court house (Judge & Jury)
Court house annex will complete it's massive renovation this yeear (has been vacant for years).
Dos Gatos bar is expanding into a neighboring building now.
New restuarant & music venue is planned to open on Bay Street.
Huge renovation will begin this year on the Haydon Burns building for new offices (now vacant).
New parking garage for The Landing has just broken ground, with a future retail compentent.
Two new tech firms have just moved into old buildings downtown (Feature 23 and The Factory).
New tech start up lab just opened on Bay Street (Kyn).
New funky clothing botique just opened on Monroe Street (Grease Rags)
Downtown apartment occupancy rate in around 96% with some properties having waiting lists.
Jax Chamber just completed their million dollar renovation of their building on Bay Street.
Downtown Invest Authroity is starting a program with $750k available for small businesses to renovate 10+ spaces to move into....and they expect to run out of month with in months.

These aren't plans on paper, but what has actually happened in the past few months or what is physically underway now. And I'm quite sure I'm forgetting a number of other notes.

Eduate yourself.

[tacosman]

Originally Posted by fsu813

You are greatly misinformed.

Trust me, there are many, many relatively successful people who live in the genral Downtown area other than Avondale & San Marco (heard or Riverside, Springfield, or Downtown itself?).

No these are not desitnation spots on par with VA Highlands, you are correct. But people with means choose to live there, and continue to do so, for a reason.

yes and there are plenty of tall people in Japan as well. It's just a lot more likely any given Japanese person will not be very tall.

The published demographics for these areas just don't support what you are saying. (me touring the areas and talking to people also don't, but that's anecdotal) I'm sure you will say that there are pockets of these areas that outperform those stats.....well yeah, but the counter to that is that there are large pockets of PVB(just to name one) that also outperform theirs.

[Robyn55]

fsu813 - The name of the furniture store is Workscapes (just in case someone tries to find it):

Workscapes, Inc. - Office Furniture Orlando, FL, Fort Lauderdale, FL, DIRTT Walls, modular walls, cubicles, Jacksonville, FL | Workscapes ? Miami, FL | Workscapes ? West Palm Beach, FL | Tampa, FL | Fort Myers, FL | Office Furniture Orlando | Office

Robyn

[fsquid]

Originally Posted by fsu813

I was citing an article.

I would compare Jacksonville with Atlanta, Charlotte, Tampa, Nashville, Biringham, Greenville, Austin, and San Diego, depending on the catagory or topic.

Charlotte is the most comparable.

No its not, not even close anymore. Maybe a decade ago.

[JBtwinz]

It amazes me to no end when I see San Diego as it is today...............in the early eighties the seediness and unsavoriness of downtown was overwhelming.............yet almost 30 years later it is a jewel.

I have been here since the mid 80's (working at Mayport before moving here for good in 89) and it still is inconceivable the snails pace that revitalizing downtown has gone.

To totally demolish the Landing and start fresh somewhat blows my mind at this late stage in the game. However long that takes we are then going to have to reintroduce the public to downtown again. I would much rather see them move at a snails pace at least it is moving forward.

All that money they said spent on a video board would help us get a national bowl game.......not!

I would try to put something at the shipyards property and some type of entertainment zone around the stadium, ballpark and veterans arena. I know when we attend the NCAA basketball tourneys here a lot of people are remarking that there is nothing close by for entertainment.