Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Seattle requires a 25 x25 sq ft space. That's 625 sq feet.
Also, you should write legislators in St. Paul, Charlottesville, Portland, Seattle, San Fran, etc to warn them about the awful mistake they made. They're all backwards hick towns.
I don't think that's correct. But - regardless - how many houses in Springfield have 35 foot side and rear set backs from where the houses are? (Or don't you think there should be a minimum lot set back - like 10 feet - from a neighbor's property line?)
FWIW - if you've read anything about goats - you will know that the miniatures require sturdy fencing at least 4 feet high to prevent escapes - regular goats 5 feet or higher. Goats also require sheds or similar to live in - because they can't be left out in the rain or cold.
I have this amusing fantasy about some Sustainable Springfield person hassling with the very proper Historic Springfield ARB about construction guidelines for goat fences and goat sheds. Would be a hoot IMO. Would love to go to the hearing.
FWIW - this whole goat thing is a big upper middle class yuppie indulgent fantasy life on the farm thing IMO. When you come down to it - if someone does it right - it will probably cost more than $5 a day for that goat milk (I am including the cost of the goat "baby sitter" - because a regular goat that's producing milk has to be milked twice a day). It's not exactly like I buy 3 basil plants at Publix for 2 bucks each - and get enough basil for the whole summer. Robyn
probably wouldn't like living next to goats. Chickens would be ok and of course having an urban garden area is great.
Just curious - why would you not want to live next to goats? And why do you think chickens are ok? FWIW - chickens scratch - scratch - scratch the ground (assume you're letting them free range). Kind of make a mess of things. I like a good looking garden of any type - but a bunch of land that's been scratched to death by chickens next door to me - no thanks.
I think most people know very little about animals. We had a neighbor years ago. Kid - about 10 - wanted a macaw more than anything else in the world. He saved his allowance for a few years - and finally bought himself a macaw - and put it on his screened porch. What a disaster. Not only did it wake up the whole neighborhood at sunrise - it woke him up too (and kids like to sleep a lot more than us older folk). The macaw was - to the relief of the neighborhood - gone in a couple of weeks.
Anyway - I have always enjoyed learning over the years about food production (kind of goes with my love of dining and cooking). I have spent time on farms - at county fairs with 4H stuff - events like the Tour de Farm. Once spent a week at Cornell Adult University taking a course called "Farming in the Finger Lakes". Excellent course. I think I have a pretty decent understanding of food production - at all levels. High - middle and low - each has a role in our world. On one extreme - there are things that should be done to prevent poor people in third world countries from starving. And on the other extreme - there are things that are done to satisfy people in 3 star Michelin restaurants. And there is - of course - an awful lot in the middle. But goats as urban yuppie entertainment - thanks but no thanks. Robyn
P.S. I am a big fan of pasteurized milk - which this yuppie goat milk is not. I would never drink milk that isn't pasteurized - or allow my kids or my parents to drink it. I do take my chances with the occasional raw milk cheese (frankly - because I love the stuff) - but I am a healthy middle aged adult and not likely to get super sick from raw milk cheese. Any parent who feeds his/her kids raw milk products has to have his/her head examined IMO.
I simply wouldn't trust people to properly take care of the goats. I worked on family farms (one in West Tennessee and one in Southern Missouri) every summer until I was about 15. No food crops for the most part other than some corn.
I currently live in the Seattle area, and I love it out here, although we do spend a lot of time waiting for the weather to get nice. My boyfriend is from Jacksonville and he wants to move back. He has lots of friends and family there and is trying to sell me on the move. I hope to have chickens and possibly goats in the future, and was looking to see if Jacksonville had open-minded policies in these areas. I am glad that there is a discussion on this topic, but am kinda bummed on how misinformed and generally against the subject people seem to be. I thought I would post a great link to help clarify some of the info on keeping goats in an urban setting.
I'm sold on the heat in Jacksonville, but it sure seems like Jacksonville is light years away from the Northwest in terms of thinking about sustainability. I hope that Sustainable Sprinfield continues to get more attention and support.
here is the link
A Crash Course ? (http://www.goatjusticeleague.org/Site/The_Basics.html - broken link)
are primarily directed to those who think keeping goats in an urban environment is a good idea. Think again. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard recently
We live on 2.33 acres "in the country" by most FL standards and just rural by TN standards. Of that land, we have approximately 1/2 acre fenced, which is essentially my back yard. I have two Pygmy goats for pets who live in the fenced area. They have a goat shed and a goat-gloo for shelter - both of which they rarely use - preferring to be close to the house.
Let me share how it is. Goats are browsers, not grazers. They NEED to have leaves and green stuff to eat to be nutritionally well-balanced. Too much grain and they will get bloat. Mine won't eat lettuce, carrots, apples - or any other fresh/green food I've offered - they do love white bread. Their hooves need to be trimmed. They are social and inquisitive. Mine don't eat grass - much to my dismay - and contrary to popular belief they won't eat "anything" - but will absolutely eat anything I don't want them to eat They can be destructive - they destroyed the wiring and tubing for our A/C unit and came through the doggie door onto the screened porch. After we reduced the size of the doggie door, they just came through the screen... Mine have never jumped the fence, but have wandered out if the gate was left ajar. If they were confined in a tiny space and bored I would imagine they would try to escape. I know I would.
They are the only animal I know that puts out more than they take in and they put it out about 24 hrs a day They have absolutely NO manners and there's a good reason you don't see people putting leashes on their pet goats and walking them in public. They are difficult - maybe impossible to train - how many goat tricks have you ever seen? In spite of this, I tremendously enjoy my little goats and they've brought me a great deal of pleasure and laughter. Even so, because they've cleared the underbrush and have little left in the yard to browse, I'm considering placing them elsewhere so that THEIR needs can be met and they can continue to be happy and healthy.
When I got them, my primary concern was not for my pleasure. My concern was if I would be able to provide proper care, proper food and ENOUGH ROOM to have happy, healthy goats. The average size lot in FL, much less a portion of the back yard, simply isn't enough space to humanely keep goats. It's sort of like saying you can have a Chihuahua, but it has to live in a shoe box. OR, like those great folks who think it's a good plan to have a dog and keep it chained...
People, get real. Where is the common sense and consideration for animals? Treat animals humanely. Take that back yard space, grow a garden, then take the money you save and go buy your goat milk at Publix. There's a reason they're called FARM animals.
I currently live in the Seattle area, and I love it out here, although we do spend a lot of time waiting for the weather to get nice. My boyfriend is from Jacksonville and he wants to move back. He has lots of friends and family there and is trying to sell me on the move. I hope to have chickens and possibly goats in the future, and was looking to see if Jacksonville had open-minded policies in these areas. I am glad that there is a discussion on this topic, but am kinda bummed on how misinformed and generally against the subject people seem to be. I thought I would post a great link to help clarify some of the info on keeping goats in an urban setting.
I'm sold on the heat in Jacksonville, but it sure seems like Jacksonville is light years away from the Northwest in terms of thinking about sustainability. I hope that Sustainable Sprinfield continues to get more attention and support.
here is the link
A Crash Course ? (http://www.goatjusticeleague.org/Site/The_Basics.html - broken link)
If you have ever been to JAX (which is co-extensive with Duval County) - it is an extremely large geographical area with various types of neighborhoods and housing and zoning. You will find everything there from high rises to houses on lots that range from postage stamp size to large to very large lots in relatively rural areas. Different areas are zoned for different things. I am sure there are areas in Duval County that have types of rural and agricultural zoning where you are allowed to keep farm animals. Just like we have one county to the south where I live - St. Johns County. We have everything in St. Johns County from condos to suburban golf course developments to large commercial agricultural parcels where crops and/or animals are raised. You can drive 10 minutes from the World Golf Village and find land where people keep herds of cattle.
I think the notion that is being challenged here is that people are entitled to keep farm animals on relatively small urban or suburban parcels (after reading the Seattle city ordinances - I seem to recall that Seattle does have different rules for different size lots - those < 20000 square feet and those > 20000 square feet - 20000 sf being a little less than half an acre - in places like Springfield - many houses are on a tenth of an acre or less). These rules are designed to protect neighbors - and - as TN Gal as pointed out - the animals.
IOW - if you move here - there will be places where you can keep farm animals to your heart's content. Just don't expect to be able to do that on a tenth of an acre in a somewhat urbanized area. Just like you wouldn't expect sewers and fiber optic cable in a somewhat rural area.
BTW - I assume you really haven't thought through the costs of having farm animals - of any kind - anywhere. Feed costs are going through the roof everywhere these days. Farm animal vets (as opposed to dog and cat vets) are hard to come by - and relatively expensive (which is why many real animal raisers have had to learn to do a lot of things that vets used to do themselves). And do the people who sell feed deliver (and - if so - at what cost)? Or do you need to get into the pickup truck and drive to the feed store once a week and load up? Doubt you'll find commercial animal food at your local grocery store.
FWIW - I once needed an item for my yard - slub tubs. And the only place they were sold in the metro area was in a Petsmart in Orange Park that had a horse department. That's about a 40 mile RT for us. But that is a once every 3 year shopping trip. Imagine having to do that once a week? And stocking up on animal feed isn't exactly like stocking up on toilet paper - because vermin will eat animal feed - have never heard of any eating toilet paper.
And then there are the limitations on your lifestyle. Goats have to be milked once or twice a day. Are you willing to wake up an hour early and milk them - and then give up Happy Hour to milk them? From what I've read - it's easier to have and raise twins than raise goats .
IOW - seems like you can "talk the talk" to a certain extent - but do you have any idea what it means to "walk the walk"? Robyn
P.S. Having nothing to do with goats. If you like Seattle and your life/lifestyle there - don't move here with a "boyfriend". Get married first. And if he doesn't want to get married - wave bye-bye. I don't see any reason to move 3000 miles if you like where you're living because of a boyfriend. Old Jewish mother saying - why buy the goat if you can get the milk for free ?
are primarily directed to those who think keeping goats in an urban environment is a good idea. Think again. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard recently
We live on 2.33 acres "in the country" by most FL standards and just rural by TN standards. Of that land, we have approximately 1/2 acre fenced, which is essentially my back yard. I have two Pygmy goats for pets who live in the fenced area. They have a goat shed and a goat-gloo for shelter - both of which they rarely use - preferring to be close to the house.
Let me share how it is. Goats are browsers, not grazers. They NEED to have leaves and green stuff to eat to be nutritionally well-balanced. Too much grain and they will get bloat. Mine won't eat lettuce, carrots, apples - or any other fresh/green food I've offered - they do love white bread. Their hooves need to be trimmed. They are social and inquisitive. Mine don't eat grass - much to my dismay - and contrary to popular belief they won't eat "anything" - but will absolutely eat anything I don't want them to eat They can be destructive - they destroyed the wiring and tubing for our A/C unit and came through the doggie door onto the screened porch. After we reduced the size of the doggie door, they just came through the screen... Mine have never jumped the fence, but have wandered out if the gate was left ajar. If they were confined in a tiny space and bored I would imagine they would try to escape. I know I would.
They are the only animal I know that puts out more than they take in and they put it out about 24 hrs a day They have absolutely NO manners and there's a good reason you don't see people putting leashes on their pet goats and walking them in public. They are difficult - maybe impossible to train - how many goat tricks have you ever seen? In spite of this, I tremendously enjoy my little goats and they've brought me a great deal of pleasure and laughter. Even so, because they've cleared the underbrush and have little left in the yard to browse, I'm considering placing them elsewhere so that THEIR needs can be met and they can continue to be happy and healthy.
When I got them, my primary concern was not for my pleasure. My concern was if I would be able to provide proper care, proper food and ENOUGH ROOM to have happy, healthy goats. The average size lot in FL, much less a portion of the back yard, simply isn't enough space to humanely keep goats. It's sort of like saying you can have a Chihuahua, but it has to live in a shoe box. OR, like those great folks who think it's a good plan to have a dog and keep it chained...
People, get real. Where is the common sense and consideration for animals? Treat animals humanely. Take that back yard space, grow a garden, then take the money you save and go buy your goat milk at Publix. There's a reason they're called FARM animals.
Alphy and Brownie
Ever since I left 4H after high school - many decades ago - I have never had a desire to be a farmer of any kind. But since my husband and I like cheese so much - and he particularly likes goat cheese - we have always tried to visit artisan goat cheese places if/when possible - both here and abroad. (Wouldn't mind visiting the commercial places - but they're generally not open to the public - we went to Sweet Grass Dairy in Thomasville GA perhaps 3 years ago when the production facility was small and open to the public on a drop by and see us basis most of the time - now it is big enough that it is closed to the public most of the time - except for special events).
Anyway - thanks for a "walk the walk" message. Robyn
To Robyn, it is true that goats are a considerable time and money commitment and not the type of decision to make lightly. I waould also like to say that I do have friends out here with a small farm and have spent time taking care of the goats, so I do have some idea of what it is actually like. I am sure there are many farm and feed stores in and around Jacksonville, so feed for the goats is not that big of an issue. You also mentioned that you are not a fan of non-pasturized milk, but for people who prefer non-pasturized, that can be very hard to find in a grocery store. I just returned from a trip to Jacksonville and was not very impressed with the natural food selection at Publix. Also, FYI, I have been with my boyfriend for 3 years, longer than many people manage to stay married, and have never been a fan of marriage myself. Not being married would actually give me more freedom if I decide to move with him and then decide that Florida is not for me. Not everyone needs to define their relationship with marriage documents.
The more progessive neighborhoods of Riverside, Springfield, San Marco and parts of the Beaches would suit you nicely. Jax is a very conservative city, so these are sort of sanctuary admist the madness.
To Robyn, it is true that goats are a considerable time and money commitment and not the type of decision to make lightly. I waould also like to say that I do have friends out here with a small farm and have spent time taking care of the goats, so I do have some idea of what it is actually like. I am sure there are many farm and feed stores in and around Jacksonville, so feed for the goats is not that big of an issue. You also mentioned that you are not a fan of non-pasturized milk, but for people who prefer non-pasturized, that can be very hard to find in a grocery store. I just returned from a trip to Jacksonville and was not very impressed with the natural food selection at Publix. Also, FYI, I have been with my boyfriend for 3 years, longer than many people manage to stay married, and have never been a fan of marriage myself. Not being married would actually give me more freedom if I decide to move with him and then decide that Florida is not for me. Not everyone needs to define their relationship with marriage documents.
The sale of unpasteurized milk for human consumption is illegal in Florida (it can be sold as pet food). So it's unlikely you'll find responsible people selling it here. (The law is the same in Georgia - the state closest to JAX.)
I don't care whether food is "natural" or "organic" or "local" or "normal". I look for freshness and quality - and tend to buy things that are in season. I am not in general fond of the produce at Publix. Tend to buy a fair amount at Fresh Market - a fair amount at Costco too (Costco for example sells beautiful fingerling potatoes that are produced locally in St. Johns County). Would probably buy more at Whole Foods - but it's pretty far away from where I live.
As for your personal situation - since your BF wants to come here in part to be close to his family - I would get a very good read on how his family feels about your living situation before making a move. People here tend to be kind of conservative - and I think it would be tough to live near a disapproving family (3000 miles away is a whole 'nother story ). Robyn
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
(and kids like to sleep a lot more than us older folk). The macaw was - to the relief of the neighborhood - gone in a couple of weeks.
Urban farming is ok!
They can be destructive - they destroyed the wiring and tubing for our A/C unit and came through the doggie door onto the screened porch. After we reduced the size of the doggie door, they just came through the screen... Mine have never jumped the fence, but have wandered out if the gate was left ajar. If they were confined in a tiny space and bored I would imagine they would try to escape. I know I would.
to train - how many goat tricks have you ever seen? In spite of this, I tremendously enjoy my little goats and they've brought me a great deal of pleasure and laughter. Even so, because they've cleared the underbrush and have little left in the yard to browse, I'm considering placing them elsewhere so that THEIR needs can be met and they can continue to be happy and healthy.
.
). Robyn
