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Ummm, Robyn, see this is what I dislike about your posts....getting all snooty. Actually my kid is an excellent player at 12yo, #1-#2 in our suburb here in 2 (travel) sports, but I didn't feel like bringing specifics into my question. I have heard that in FLA sports can be ultra competitive, so I wanted a read on that as well as what options there are outside of HS. Moreover, there are also trends going on in sports regarding (over)specialization where kids play one sport from a young age in order to make HS teams but it can also mean more injuries, burnout, etc. And by the way, sports are about more than winning and your view is quite shallow. No, I don't think everyone is a winner or should get a trophy. But there is MUCH more to it and I doubt you are the expert on youth sports or high school athletics. I am simply asking what the options are. I am well aware that kids have different advantages etc, I'm not "just a taxpayer", I have students and athletes that are going through the experience first hand.
By the way, high school kids go to school MORE than college students and these days, have MORE homework (if a rigorous high school and talking AP-level classes or similar). The amount of hours that the AP students spend studying is not going to be as visible to you as the kids golfing, because the top students (the ones hoping to attend ivy league schools or even UF) are likely studying and staying up late. Even my middle school kids have FAR more homework than I ever did in high school. Times have changed, and I doubt you are an expert on that.
Last edited by snuffybear; 03-28-2014 at 06:19 PM..
Also, your post misses something. In many areas, the most competitive level of play (eg. soccer, lacrosse) is the "academy" level soccer at big tournaments. This is because the college scouts can come see many more players in a day than at a HS game. Many players desiring scholarships actually play at this level (so it's not just "community teams" that are offered outside of the HS sports arena). In fact, in many areas, some of the ultra-travel teams do not even allow their players to play the HS team as it is viewed as a distraction from the travel team, taking away training and game time at a higher level.
Ummm, Robyn, see this is what I dislike about your posts....getting all snooty. Actually my kid is an excellent player at 12yo, #1-#2 in our suburb here in 2 (travel) sports, but I didn't feel like bringing specifics into my question. I have heard that in FLA sports can be ultra competitive, so I wanted a read on that as well as what options there are outside of HS. Moreover, there are also trends going on in sports regarding (over)specialization where kids play one sport from a young age in order to make HS teams but it can also mean more injuries, burnout, etc. And by the way, sports are about more than winning and your view is quite shallow. No, I don't think everyone is a winner or should get a trophy. But there is MUCH more to it and I doubt you are the expert on youth sports or high school athletics. I am simply asking what the options are. I am well aware that kids have different advantages etc, I'm not "just a taxpayer", I have students and athletes that are going through the experience first hand.
By the way, high school kids go to school MORE than college students and these days, have MORE homework (if a rigorous high school and talking AP-level classes or similar). The amount of hours that the AP students spend studying is not going to be as visible to you as the kids golfing, because the top students (the ones hoping to attend ivy league schools or even UF) are likely studying and staying up late. Even my middle school kids have FAR more homework than I ever did in high school. Times have changed, and I doubt you are an expert on that.
I think WRT any specific child in any specific sport - it is going to be a case by case thing in terms of all the possible options. Which may exist in a local public school - a local private school - the community at large - and even (for some children) a "sleep away" (almost always single) sport academy (especially for golf or tennis).
You're right that many sports here in Florida can be very competitive. Heck - we even televise a lot of high school football. OTOH - I'm in the camp that believes that our public schools shouldn't be in the business of trying to produce athletes (for some of the reasons you've stated - others too). If parents/children want to do it in their free time - with their own money - fine.
I think the primary role of schools WRT physical - as opposed to intellectual - education should be to provide a curriculum for *all* students that results in their being healthier and more fit physically. IOW - the old fashioned stuff. Running - calisthenics - flexibility workouts - nutrition education - etc. Even though SJC is supposed to be the "healthiest" county in Florida - we still have too many kids who are overweight couch potatoes.
Finally - when it comes to homework and the like - I think that kids would have a lot more free hours in the day if they took their fingers off their smart phones and pried their eyes away from the TV. I don't think homework today is any more onerous that it was when I was in school. Just seems that way if you're spending a huge amount of time doing these other things:
We are in agreement there. I think sports should be mostly outside of school, especially with the availability of so many options today. Also, sometimes school sports are coached by teachers with little knowledge of the sport. And from a taxpayer perspective, yes, physical education/fitness for all should be more of a priority than funding high level competitive sports. But that is a huge can of worms that is largely driven by the football culture in the US, the sports culture, Title 9, etc. This mini-professional culture has pushed down to the high school level and even youth sports.
I agree about smartphones and TV and computer games. However, still, kids have probably 10x the homework that we did in middle school and HS. My kids are in middle school and have tests in multiple classes almost DAILY and every single homework is GRADED in every subject. And, high stakes tests are given multiple times a year, taking significant time away from real learning and put on testing to evaluate students, teachers, and schools. While this may sound "good", the reality is that all the teaching is to the test, which limits creativity and real learning. This is an issue in every state in the USA right now. In Florida it's the FCAT, other states are going to PARCC (new standardized testing) then there are other tests-to-prep-for-the-test, then regular tests, then other pre-and post-tests for every unit to ensure the kids are progressing because teacher jobs depend on proving that, etc.
Also, there is far more pressure on kids today than 10+ years ago. I actually just spent the morning at a college admissions seminar (early for me but I went with a friend just to learn) and it is very,very hard to get into selective colleges. Need 700+ on each section of SAT, >4.0 GPA, leadership positions, uniqueness, and recommendations. ALL of this must be there and they still may not get in -- there are simply way more applicants and not more established colleges/universities, and the competition is high. The pressure on high school kids is now called a "Race to Nowhere" (referring to a documentary made after the suicides of teens under this academic pressure). It is our children's childhoods that are compromised because it is hard to just be a kid these days. This was NOT the case when you (!!) or I were children. Perhaps we feel it more in the northeast (another reason for defecting out of the rat race -- hopefully in a place like PVB the schools can be excellent but lifestyle balanced and enjoyable).
Last edited by snuffybear; 03-29-2014 at 01:09 PM..
We are in agreement there. I think sports should be mostly outside of school, especially with the availability of so many options today. Also, sometimes school sports are coached by teachers with little knowledge of the sport. And from a taxpayer perspective, yes, physical education/fitness for all should be more of a priority than funding high level competitive sports. But that is a huge can of worms that is largely driven by the football culture in the US, the sports culture, Title 9, etc. This mini-professional culture has pushed down to the high school level and even youth sports.
You know things are way out of hand when this happens :
I can't speak to the competence of any school coach in particular (much less generalize). But these coaches don't coach for free. They cost taxpayers money. Money that would be better spent IMO to benefit a much larger number of students. Note that I'm talking about high school and middle school coaches. Many of our college coaches in Florida are among the state's most highly paid state employees
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I agree about smartphones and TV and computer games. However, still, kids have probably 10x the homework that we did in middle school and HS. My kids are in middle school and have tests in multiple classes almost DAILY and every single homework is GRADED in every subject. And, high stakes tests are given multiple times a year, taking significant time away from real learning and put on testing to evaluate students, teachers, and schools. While this may sound "good", the reality is that all the teaching is to the test, which limits creativity and real learning. This is an issue in every state in the USA right now. In Florida it's the FCAT, other states are going to PARCC (new standardized testing) then there are other tests-to-prep-for-the-test, then regular tests, then other pre-and post-tests for every unit to ensure the kids are progressing because teacher jobs depend on proving that, etc.
I recall doing a lot of homework - but that was a long time ago. I was never sure where this concept of "teaching to the test" came from. Because we always had tests (most important ones in my day were the PSAT and SAT). If you learned what was being taught - you did well on most of the tests (except those that arguably had a cultural bias - e.g., questions asking about old classical music). I don't think that there is any tension between tests and "creativity and real learning" (whatever that is). Because I think you need to master the basic building blocks of knowledge before you're entitled to be "creative" (whatever that means). Whether you're talking about math - science - grammar - learning a language - whatever.
Sometimes I honestly don't know what's going on in schools these days. I have met family members/children of friends who took 3-4 years of Spanish in school - but can't speak or write a simple grammatical sentence. They can't solve simple "word problem" algebra equations (which are IMO more basic math than algebra). E.g., here's a "sample question" from a 10th grade FCAT math test:
An electrician charges a $45 fee to make a house call plus an hourly rate for labor. If the electrician works at one house for 3 hours and charges $145.50 for the job, what is the electrician’s hourly rate?
Perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of teachers are duds. I was pretty much in the first generation of women who weren't relegated to teaching/nursing if they wanted to work in a profession. My husband has taken some advanced math classes at UNF - and the professors say the quality of the students taking "math for teachers" is just hideous now.
Perhaps another problem is that every X years - groups of educators come up with new stupid ideas about how to teach things. Ideas that leave parents who want to get involved in their kids' educations - assist with homework if necessary - etc. - clueless - and often don't work out as well as older more established ideas. I am surprised these days at the people I meet who are home-schooling their children. They are not - as the MSM would have one think - just a bunch of right wing extremists who don't want their kids exposed to theories of evolution. They're people like my husband's (very smart talented high tech) dentist - whose wife is home-schooling their 8 children.
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Also, there is far more pressure on kids today than 10+ years ago. I actually just spent the morning at a college admissions seminar (early for me but I went with a friend just to learn) and it is very,very hard to get into selective colleges. Need 700+ on each section of SAT, >4.0 GPA, leadership positions, uniqueness, and recommendations. ALL of this must be there and they still may not get in -- there are simply way more applicants and not more established colleges/universities, and the competition is high. The pressure on high school kids is now called a "Race to Nowhere" (referring to a documentary made after the suicides of teens under this academic pressure). It is our children's childhoods that are compromised because it is hard to just be a kid these days. This was NOT the case when you (!!) or I were children. Perhaps we feel it more in the northeast (another reason for defecting out of the rat race -- hopefully in a place like PVB the schools can be excellent but lifestyle balanced and enjoyable).
I think there are several factors at work here. I don't think there are more kids today than in my generation (I'm an early boomer - my husband is late silent/forgotten generation - we are closer to 70 than 60). Perhaps more attend college. Especially many who shouldn't and would be better off learning a trade in high school. OTOH - there are lots of new community colleges and the like for this student cohort. So I don't think that's the issue either.
I personally think there are several factors at work. First is the Lake Wobegon belief (all the children are above average). Second is increasing and perhaps unrealistic expectations on the part of parents and children. Note that I had well > 700 SAT scores and a 4.0 GPA (highest you could get then ) - ranked second in a class of over 600 kids - and still didn't get into Radcliffe in 1968 (although I did get into Cornell). Third is that WRT more exclusive schools - especially the Ivy League schools - affirmative action has changed the landscape. Affirmative action students do not replace any Kennedy kin (even if they're dumbbells). They replace kids from places like the Bronx High School of Science. Note that we know some people here who are perhaps a half decade older than us who went to places like Yale (out of Bolles). There seems to be a definite difference between the admission standards in the 50's and those in the 60's based on our discussions.
Fourth is that as second and third and even fourth tier private schools became more and more expensive (ridiculously expensive IMO) - more parents who might never have considered sending their kids to public schools - including many parents in Florida - started to consider public schools as an option. When we first moved to Florida in the early 70's - UF was thought of as a joke party school. That certainly isn't the case today. So the best public schools have become - increasingly - a tough ticket.
FWIW - one thing I am seeing today - at least when it comes to all the kids in my extended family - is that middle tier private schools (and even some very high tier schools) - will put a plus in your kid's column if you can pay full freight for the school and don't need any financial aid. Won't gain entry to Stanford for your mediocre kid - but it may well seal the deal for your really good kid. At the other end of the spectrum - some of the middle tier schools will provide more in the way of financial aid to your kid if you can afford to pay a substantial part of their outrageous costs.
Finally - note that I am pretty much on top of this stuff. I'm not a parent. But a donor with a pretty large educational charitable bequest in my will. And I've had a lot of back and forth with a couple of universities over the years (because some don't see things the way I see them - and I'm writing the rules when it comes my charitable bequests - not them). Robyn
Robyn, read about the Common Core and what it is doing to our public schools with regard to teaching to the test. There are far more standardized tests than when we were in school. For instance, my kids this year are taking the MAP standardized test (spring and fall), PARCC Pilot (spring), NJASK (spring). That is 12 days of standardized testing. That does NOT include all the teacher-written tests and test prep to prepare for the above tests, and to show the mandated "student progress" (ie, pre and post tests), regular tests (DAILY) and extra requirements for special ed students (they take test prep classes all year long). There are even tests in PE and Art because those teachers must show the kids are "progressing". This is elem and middle school level. Not talking about the PSAT and SAT here. Talking about state mandated testing. This is one of the main reasons for the recent growth in the homeschooling movement. The teachers are very nervous and upset because their jobs are tied to the kids' performance on these tests and they don't feel test performance is in their control. Virtually all of their efforts are geared toward test prep. In many cases, they are NOT ALLOWED to stray from scripted lessons (common core), and cannot add to or modify the lessons. These are all bubble tests, by the way (sometimes there is one writing component, which is controversial and subjective)...not the tests of your / my day which are based on material the teacher has taught...they are based on common core curriculum requirements. Please note, this is not specific to FLA (my example is NJ) but rather, what is generally going on in 48+ states. Some states are now steppping back and OUT of common core because of the problems. This is a different issue than what you are referencing above.
The one area where you are on the mark is "every X years the (politicians-- be careful, this time educators were not even involved!) come in with new stupid ideas about how to teach (test) things. Yes, correct. That is because they see schools as "failing" and want to solve this problem with their (not) brilliant ways of reinventing the wheel. Are you aware kids are taught roundabout ways of doing math now? Not 136+345=481 but literally crazy roundabout, inefficient methods. And your example about Spanish is a good one. Spanish is not a "tested subject" so there is little focus there. "What gets measured gets done".
This is all a result of the recent legislation and developments in federal/state public school funding (the Race to the Top / Common Core). And yes, the powers that be think that "all kids should be prepared to go to college". This is different than in your era where only a certain % went to college and others took shop, typing, etc. to prepare for jobs after HS.
PS. > 4.0 GPA is what admissions officers use to weight AP classes higher. Some high schools already do this. But they are then looking for a 4.3 GPA, not 4.0. Everything is different than in your day and kids take far more AP classes than were available back then. And FYI, one of the main things the college seminar leader (who was an admissions officer at a highly selective college) stressed was to be "friendly" and "never, ever come across as braggish". She said that trait will, literally, get your application trashed. Bragging about ivy league schools and being over confident about getting in, is the example she gave. Ivys now turn down THOUSANDS of valedictorians and are proud of it. And they want kids that want to help the world, not brag about their place in it.
Last edited by snuffybear; 03-29-2014 at 05:56 PM..
The Power of U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan and the Criticism of His Agenda, Including Common Core are the subject of a report by PBS NewsHour Special Correspondent for Education John Merrow
Friday, March 28, 2014
Arne Duncan may be the most powerful Secretary of Education the U.S. has ever seen. Although the federal government contributes only about 10% of the money the US spends on public schools, Sec. Duncan has overseen the allocation of billions of dollars and pushed hard for changes tied to that money.
He's also a force in the widespread adoption of Common Core standards -- now under political fire in many states. Is he overstepping his bounds? PBS NewsHour's special correspondent for education John Merrow offers a report that looks at the increasingly visible and controversial role Duncan wields through both the administration's Race to the Top program and the Common Core
Robyn, read about the Common Core and what it is doing to our public schools with regard to teaching to the test. There are far more standardized tests than when we were in school. For instance, my kids this year are taking the MAP standardized test (spring and fall), PARCC Pilot (spring), NJASK (spring). That is 12 days of standardized testing. That does NOT include all the teacher-written tests and test prep to prepare for the above tests, and to show the mandated "student progress" (ie, pre and post tests), regular tests (DAILY) and extra requirements for special ed students (they take test prep classes all year long). There are even tests in PE and Art because those teachers must show the kids are "progressing". This is elem and middle school level. Not talking about the PSAT and SAT here. Talking about state mandated testing. This is one of the main reasons for the recent growth in the homeschooling movement. The teachers are very nervous and upset because their jobs are tied to the kids' performance on these tests and they don't feel test performance is in their control. Virtually all of their efforts are geared toward test prep. In many cases, they are NOT ALLOWED to stray from scripted lessons (common core), and cannot add to or modify the lessons. These are all bubble tests, by the way (sometimes there is one writing component, which is controversial and subjective)...not the tests of your / my day which are based on material the teacher has taught...they are based on common core curriculum requirements. Please note, this is not specific to FLA (my example is NJ) but rather, what is generally going on in 48+ states. Some states are now steppping back and OUT of common core because of the problems. This is a different issue than what you are referencing above.
The one area where you are on the mark is "every X years the (politicians-- be careful, this time educators were not even involved!) come in with new stupid ideas about how to teach (test) things. Yes, correct. That is because they see schools as "failing" and want to solve this problem with their (not) brilliant ways of reinventing the wheel. Are you aware kids are taught roundabout ways of doing math now? Not 136+345=481 but literally crazy roundabout, inefficient methods. And your example about Spanish is a good one. Spanish is not a "tested subject" so there is little focus there. "What gets measured gets done".
This is all a result of the recent legislation and developments in federal/state public school funding (the Race to the Top / Common Core). And yes, the powers that be think that "all kids should be prepared to go to college". This is different than in your era where only a certain % went to college and others took shop, typing, etc. to prepare for jobs after HS.
PS. > 4.0 GPA is what admissions officers use to weight AP classes higher. Some high schools already do this. But they are then looking for a 4.3 GPA, not 4.0. Everything is different than in your day and kids take far more AP classes than were available back then. And FYI, one of the main things the college seminar leader (who was an admissions officer at a highly selective college) stressed was to be "friendly" and "never, ever come across as braggish". She said that trait will, literally, get your application trashed. Bragging about ivy league schools and being over confident about getting in, is the example she gave. Ivys now turn down THOUSANDS of valedictorians and are proud of it. And they want kids that want to help the world, not brag about their place in it.
I do read about common core and other education issues from time to time. And it sometimes seem that this is all taking place in some kind of an alternative universe than the one I live in. (Along these lines - thanks for the informative link you sent me - seems like New Jersey has its own stupid approaches to things - they're somewhat different than the approaches Florida has - but equally stupid IMO.) If you want to hear one of the dumbest things - I have a friend who teaches profoundly impaired older kids in Duval County. The kind who are lucky to leave high school toilet trained (as opposed to less impaired kids who might one day be able to work as baggers at Publix). And a bunch of the new proposals would grade *her* on these kids' "improvements". How ridiculous. Of course - it's also ridiculous to "flunk" teachers because their kids from disadvantaged backgrounds don't do well. We're just talking about degrees of "ridiculousness".
I agree 100% about this being one of the factors in terms of the trend towards more homeschooling. I'm also familiar with the "new math". Or whatever it's called these days. "Everyday math"?
And I wonder how children who are taught this way will ever be to solve simple math problems by - for example - writing simple algorithms. Even if they're doing something as low level as cooking and trying to double or halve a recipe.
I took AP courses in high school - but honestly can't recall what anyone did with them in terms of my GPA. And - as for being confident - bragging - whatever. I spent my professional life among trial lawyers. And I was in court often too. Lack of confidence/modesty etc. aren't traits that get you far in that part of the real world IMO. Of course - women have always encountered problems dealing with these kinds of issues - and these problems persist to this day:
Robyn, correct. Although the Common Core is in the news DAILY, I read about it from news feeds every day and still can't keep up. In Florida recently, a child was dying of a terminal illness and the teacher was required to administer standardized tests. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...dardized-test/
Yep, the rationale behind the new wave of standardized testing and federal funding (which requires this) is that teachers will be graded based on standardized test performance. So virtually all teaching efforts are geared toward showing the teachers are "effective" due to improvement on test scores. But there are so many variables, and so many types of students. Oh, and in some places (Chicago, Newark, etc) they are not just firing teachers, but closing entire schools and firing ALL teachers/admin due to kids underperforming (which is more driven by the kinds of homes the inner-city kids come from)...then opening "charter schools" to replace them, which is a US Dept of Education agenda. Are these schools/teachers really "better"? I don't get the idea most people think so. I'm not that up on it, because this is an inner-city issue, but it's also in the news daily.
"Everyday Math" was the OLD "new math". The "new math" is Common Core Math (Everyday did relaunch their NEW "Everyday Common Core Math program" last year - I attended their presentation which felt like they were "selling" the entire 2hrs). There are other programs that are "better" such as Singapore Math, but the new programs are also based on Common Core. Simple Algorithims are being thrown out the window (kids aren't allowed to use them!) in favor of extended, roundabout ways that "teach the kids to think" (good idea in theory but very inefficient). Meanwhile, in many schools, the top math students aren't allowed to move ahead, because the admin wants continued focus on the "tested material". The slower students are funneled into extra "test prep" classes. None of this is going to solve the US' "lower ratings" on international math exams. (in other countries, only the top students already selected take these exams; in the US everyone takes them; if we let our top students move ahead rather than be slowed by Common Core, perhaps they'd bring up the average, and be more ready for STEM careers).
Hopefully, in a top school district, the students tend to be more driven, so there is more room for better ways of doing things and teacher autonomy.
Schools in NJ offered just a few AP courses in your day. I have numerous family/friends that grew up in your area who all say it was just one AP math, one AP English and one AP Science if you were "tracked" (that word not allowed by educators anymore) to the higher level courses. But they also confirm they had virtually no homework in middle school, and a very reasonable amount in HS. Today, kids have homework starting in elem school, increasing in middle school, and lots in high school to the point high school kids study hours into the night (St. Johns schools have gone with the research that shows high schools should start later). Also, the top high schools now offer 20+ AP courses. Kids applying to "highly selective colleges" are expected to take 5+ minimum with a 3-5 score on AP Exams, which does require plenty of studying. Because there is more and more competition to get into selective colleges, kids take more and more AP courses, and it has now become a "Race to Nowhere" where kids are getting exhausted and burning out before college. It is something to think about when considering the "top" school districts. I personally know several kids that have had nervous breakdowns in middle and high school requiring long hospitalizations then tutors at home funded by tax dollars.
Since you and others have expressed interest in the "Tebow law" - this proposed legislation (discussed in today's Florida Times Union) might also be of interest:
Students who are home-schooled or attend charter and virtual institutions could see their chances to compete in sports and other extracurricular activities at public schools grow, thanks to a bill making its way through the Legislature. The bipartisan House Bill 533, sponsored by Rep. Manny Diaz, R-Hialeah, and Rep. Joe Saunders, D-Orlando, passed by an 82-34 vote late Thursday night and now moves on to the Senate. The bill covers sports and intramural athletics within the scope of the Florida High School Athletic Association, as well as fine or performing arts, speech, debate “and other academic or social clubs, teams, or activities.” Under the bill, home-schooled or students at virtual or online schools could participate at any public school in their district, or at a public school in another district. They could also elect to compete at a private school if the school allows it. Charter school students and public school students could compete in an activity at another school only if their current school didn’t provide it.
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) - ranked second in a class of over 600 kids - and still didn't get into Radcliffe in 1968 (although I did get into Cornell). Third is that WRT more exclusive schools - especially the Ivy League schools - affirmative action has changed the landscape. Affirmative action students do not replace any Kennedy kin (even if they're dumbbells). They replace kids from places like the Bronx High School of Science. Note that we know some people here who are perhaps a half decade older than us who went to places like Yale (out of Bolles). There seems to be a definite difference between the admission standards in the 50's and those in the 60's based on our discussions.
