Mass Transit Crystal Ball (Jacksonville, Tampa: houses, transfer, neighborhoods)

[Ocklawaha]

As this thread seems to have been diverted onto the Skyway, I'll start there.
When planned (over the protest of myself and a "gang" of Light Rail folks) it was to connect hospitals with downtown. Employment centers with the core. Then it was to tie the whole thing to a system of mega-garages out of the downtown. End result, few buses downtown, few cars and a very clean and walkable city. The Skyway was "given" to us as an experiment by Uncle Sam.
The problem is they quit, the darn thing has made international news under headlines such as ABC's (What if they built a transit system and nobody came!) I watched it in horror from my Medellin, Colombia, apartment. All the while screaming at the TV... "THEY NEVER FINISHED IT! THEY QUIT!"

The Skyway was NEVER designed to go to neighborhoods or airports, in fact it started as a downtown people-mover (like an airport shuttle car) then the City tried to salvage it by conversion to true Monorail.
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To the Small government guys... How much income did the City get last year off of JTB? How about Blanding? Main Street? I-95? ZERO, and all the transportation taxes collected from all the commercial vehicles you see rolling down these super-slabs NATIONWIDE, wouldn't patch the pot holes in Duval County alone. How much did we earn from the Beach last year? How about Boone Park? Willow Branch? or the Library? These are all things that go to improve our standard if living.

No transit system gets more then a fraction of it's needs from the farebox, in fact, many Cities and whole States are experimenting with "Free" Transit.
Before you come out of your seat and start the name calling, think, free transit has been flooded with riders. Thousands in such numbers that it had to be canceled for review... Imagine those people fighting with you for a space on Atlantic Blvd, or Lane Avenue? Now imagine they're all GONE! BTW, as a former City Councilman (not in Jax) did you know that a single 18 wheeler, with a max load, can do as much damage in a single pass over a highway bridge as 85,000 automobiles? So really? How free are free highways?

Costs? Yes the Federal FTA and DOT as well as about 1,000 other agencys have all types of grants, most operating grants are a given, every system - everywhere gets them. Even so, it's a tiny fraction of what Highways get.

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Ignored was the indication that this Skyway, streetcar, RDC, BRT, City Bus and River Taxi would be a completely interlinked SYSTEM. A system of choice, of modes, routes, comfort, and speed... a good transit system knows that mix sells, just as it does in Wal-Mart. The more the better.

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Get you from the Airport? Hey, did you READ the Commuter Rail or the Hybrid Rail portion? This is going to the City within 30 days! This is very real and you soon may be able to travel from a BRT connection from Airport-to-Train at River City Market Place Station. Ride to Union Terminal, take another train to Orange Park or Green Cove. Hop on the Skyway to City Hall or board a REAL streetcar to the Landing. Need access to Northwest Jax? The new bus routes would transfer across the platform.

Hope some of you ENJOYED the journey into the very possible future...

Ocklawaha

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by KerryB

You're comparing apples to oranges. NYC's transit system is the biggest in the country & NYC is one of the top most expensive places to live.

Be a little more modest. There are many other cities with mass transit that don't tax people to death & toll them to death.

not to be aurgumentative, but please name some

[WitchDoctor]

There are more and more federal and state programs to encourage mass transit development. That increased funding from outside sources really just makes up for the increases in initial cost. IMO, the benefits of using mass transit far outweigh the costs. (From the city's perspective.)

Without mass transit, as the city grows it reaches a saturation point after which there is too much traffic and commutes are too long. There is no room to add traffic lanes and adding housing will merely increase traffic, so the growth simply stalls.

With mass transit, the transportation system is more efficient, moving more people from their homes to their jobs in less time. If more people can get to work, there will eventually be more jobs. More jobs means more taxes for the city. This is a positive cycle. As an extra bonus, the burden on the streets and bridges is less, so there is less maintenance. Police can spend less time on traffic and wrecks and more time fighting crime.

I grew up in Europe, so I've seen good mass transit and often wondered why we can't seem to get it started here in the US. 20 years ago, they had the EurRail pass. It was good in different countries. We can't even get a system to work across town.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

To the Small government guys... How much income did the City get last year off of JTB? How about Blanding? Main Street? I-95? ZERO,

you must be kidding, without roads you have no economic development, I'm not going to even bother listing all the economic activity spurred by highways, but the 1950's are long gone, cute downtowns rarely exist anymore and while mass transit works well when feeding an urban core, it fails miserably in the modern sprawl that we have here in JAX

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be mass transit, all I am doing is pointing out the very real truth that these systems are very expensive to build and insanely expensive to operate. When you figure out where the money will come from, then you'll have a complete plan for mass transit in JAX

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by WitchDoctor

There are more and more federal and state programs to encourage mass transit development. That increased funding from outside sources really just makes up for the increases in initial cost. IMO, the benefits of using mass transit far outweigh the costs. (From the city's perspective.)

Without mass transit, as the city grows it reaches a saturation point after which there is too much traffic and commutes are too long. There is no room to add traffic lanes and adding housing will merely increase traffic, so the growth simply stalls.

is that so? Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, even knoxville and many other very big and still growing cities with minimal mass transit systems seem to prove otherwise

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

is that so? Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, even knoxville and many other very big and still growing cities with minimal mass transit systems seem to prove otherwise

Atlanta has a mass transit system and is currently expanding it.

Charlotte is in the process of building out a mass transit sytem.

One of my close family friends was a civil engineer for City of Dallas and they too are expanding their mass transit

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

not to be aurgumentative, but please name some

Portland, Chicago, Austin (coming soon), DC metro area, Seattle, San Fran, just to name a few. These aren't NYC-type mass transit systems, but they aren't just a bunch of buses either. Remember, the NY area is the "land of taxes & tolls". So, those fees pay for much more than just the transit system.

You can totally get around without a car in every one of those cities, even give up a car all together if you lived/worked in the right place. The average family has at least 2 cars. But what is a car used for really?? Once you get past all the marketing BS where they wanna tell you that a car "defines" ones self, its simply a mode of transportation to get you from A to B. So, even IF your family couldn't go without a car altogether, you could at least narrow it down to having only one to share when you needed it. Seriously, that would be all you would need in a city with good mass transit. Bikes, scooters, etc take up the rest of the slack.

Think for a moment all the costs involved with owning one single fairly new automobile & driving it daily for your routines. Even if you had to pay a bit higher taxes + the fees for taking public transportation, it would be significantly cheaper than owning a car. Totally worth it.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by KerryB

Portland, Chicago, Austin (coming soon), DC metro area, Seattle, San Fran, just to name a few. These aren't NYC-type mass transit systems, but they aren't just a bunch of buses either. Remember, the NY area is the "land of taxes & tolls". So, those fees pay for much more than just the transit system.

You can totally get around without a car in every one of those cities, even give up a car all together if you lived/worked in the right place. The average family has at least 2 cars. But what is a car used for really?? Once you get past all the marketing BS where they wanna tell you that a car "defines" ones self, its simply a mode of transportation to get you from A to B. So, even IF your family couldn't go without a car altogether, you could at least narrow it down to having only one to share when you needed it. Seriously, that would be all you would need in a city with good mass transit. Bikes, scooters, etc take up the rest of the slack.

Think for a moment all the costs involved with owning one single fairly new automobile & driving it daily for your routines. Even if you had to pay a bit higher taxes + the fees for taking public transportation, it would be significantly cheaper than owning a car. Totally worth it.

That's your opinion, coming from the NY area where I had the pleasure of paying absurd taxes, 4.50 to cross a bridge and other inane scams to fund mass transit, I can still ask the question, who will pay for mass transit in JAX?
when that train can pick me up at my front door and deliver me anywhere I want to go at anytime that I want to go, then you can say a train can replace a car.

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

That's your opinion, coming from the NY area where I had the pleasure of paying absurd taxes, 4.50 to cross a bridge and other inane scams to fund mass transit, I can still ask the question, who will pay for mass transit in JAX?

Its neither an opinion nor a fact. Some can do it, some cant.

And I cant help that NYC jaded you on the thought of mass transit. To each his own I guess. NYC is expensive to just live & breathe. What did you think it was gonna be like in a place that costs like $100 a day to park?? Its the extreme.

Originally Posted by apvbguy

When that train can pick me up at my front door and deliver me anywhere I want to go at anytime that I want to go, then you can say a train can replace a car.

Dude, no offense, but thats just an asinine comment. Be realistic. Anyone who says things like that is against any sorta of mass transit whatsoever. Do you also expect a jet to pick you up in your driveway?? You lost me on that one man. Sorry.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by KerryB

Its neither an opinion nor a fact. Some can do it, some cant.

And I cant help that NYC jaded you on the thought of mass transit. To each his own I guess. NYC is expensive to just live & breathe. What did you think it was gonna be like in a place that costs like $100 a day to park?? Its the extreme.


Dude, no offense, but thats just an asinine comment. Be realistic. Anyone who says things like that is against any sorta of mass transit whatsoever. Do you also expect a jet to pick you up in your driveway?? You lost me on that one man. Sorry.

Dude?? you're kidding, people still say dude?
you are very naive about what a mass transit system costs and how it is funded.

My obviously absurd post just highlights why mass transit is not accepted by many people, in a sprawling place like JAX it just isn't possible to provide a level of service that will draw many people. Mass transit works best in places with a main business district, like JAX's urban core, but most people do not travel to the urban core for their work, and there is zero shopping and very little in the way of a night life there. People here and in most places travel to spread out locations for work shopping and play.
Some limited mass transit could be successful here but costs would be astronomical and I don't think it is supportable from a financial perspective which brings us back to my original question, where will the money come from to develop and operate a mass transit system here in JAX? the city/county is always crying poverty yet the sales tax is higher than other counties. Unless new methods of funding are created mass transit in JAX will remain a dream