Mass Transit Crystal Ball (Jacksonville, Mayo: trip , work, costs)

[Ocklawaha]

you must be kidding, without roads you have no economic development, I'm not going to even bother listing all the economic activity spurred by highways, but the 1950's are long gone, cute downtowns rarely exist anymore and while mass transit works well when feeding an urban core, it fails miserably in the modern sprawl...

So all economic development is due to roads? Or is it that all economic development is due to road based systems? How much new money would a highway through an old section of town generate? Take MLK through Northwest Jacksonville and widen it or make it into a complete freeway, how much economy will that spur?

These questions do have answers. While development will follow a highway into new and undeveloped area, the highway will not control or target the development in the same way that mass transit can. Transit Oriented Development is more then just a "bus stop" or "a building next to transit". It is a station, that becomes part of the destination itself. Highways account for only 8% of these dense Transit-Town Center-Office-Residential-Retail developments. Light Rail is currently running about 30-40 million a mile to build, and the return is $1,250 dollars of new dense development for EVERY dollar invested in rail. No highway comes close.

In new area's such as the JTB corridor? Studies show that in order to gain the net increase of just a single lane of new highway, 4 lanes must be built to handle the natural infill. Thus the highway is the engine of sprawl, not the answer to it. No amount of pavement will save us regardless of a dense compact city or a spread out area like Jacksonville. In the United States, we have already paved over 10% of all land. As the population grows and the demand for land increases we are headed for a collision of needs and means if we hold the current course.

Some well intended person mentioned Atlanta... Atlanta has MARTA a large heavy rail subway-elevated mass transit system that pre dates our Skyway. They are also funding a network of Commuter trains, and doing studies of Light Rail and BRT.

Charlotte... Same as here only ahead of us and without the Skyway component, have Light Rail up and running, commuter rail coming, BRT under-construction. A transit tax revolt held by highway interests went to the polls and just lost by a 75% margin.

Nationwide, while transit ridership has declined by a few percent per year over the last 20 years, suddenly in the last 5-10 it has ticked upward. +2%/+3% of this increase is highway based transit. A few more percent is heavy rail or commuter rail based. Finally +150% is Light Rail Transit, which is also equal to the amount (+150%) systems like Charlotte are OVER the projected ridership. Sounds like a benefit to me.

For the record Cities with Light Rail in addition to buses up and running are:

1. Baltimore
2. Boston
3. Buffalo
4. Cleveland
5. Dallas
6. Denver
7. Fort Worth
8. Jersey City
9. Kenosha
10. Memphis
11. New Orleans
12. Newark
13. Philadelphia
14. Pittsburgh
15. Portland
16. Sacramento
17. St. Louis
18. Salt Lake City
19. San Diego
20. San Francisco
21. San Jose
22. Seattle
23. Tampa
    
    US cities with Light Rail systems approved or actively proposed:
24. Albuquerque
25. Anchorage
26. Aspen
27. Austin
28. Bergen County, NJ
29. Birmingham
30. Burlington, VT
31. Charleston
32. Charlotte
33. Charlottesville
34. Chesapeake
35. Cincinnati (X2)
36. Colorado Springs
37. Columbus
38. Detroit
39. Grand Canyon
40. Hampton Roads
41. Honolulu
42. Indianapolis
43. Kansas City
44. Louisville
45. Madison
46. Milwaukee
47. Minneapolis (X2)
48. Nashville
49. Oklahoma City
50. Omaha
51. Orange County
52. Orlando
53. Phoenix
54. Roanoke
55. Raleigh-Durham
56. Richmond
57. San Antonio
58. Seattle
59. Southern NJ
60. Spokane
61. Tacoma
62. Union County, NJ

Canadian cities that already have Light Rail systems in operation:

1. Calgary, AB
2. Edmonton, AB
3. Ottawa, ON
4. Toronto, ON

Mexican cities that already have Light Rail systems in operation:

1. Guadalajara
2. Mexico City
3. Monterrey

Canadian cities with Light Rail systems approved or actively proposed:

1. Montreal, PQ
2. Quebec, PQ
3. Vancouver, BC
4. Winnipeg, MB

Mexican cities with Light Rail systems approved or actively proposed:

1. Puebla
2. Tijuana

North American systems and extensions under construction:

1. Dallas
2. Houston
3. Jersey City
4. New York (JFK Airport)
5. Newark
6. Pasadena
7. Pittsburgh (X2)
8. Portland
9. St. Louis
10. Salt Lake City
11. San Jose (X2)
12. Calgary (Canada)
13. Ottawa (Canada)

North American extensions proposed or approved:

1. Dallas (X5)
2. Denver (X2)
3. Orlando
4. Portland
5. Salt Lake City
6. St. Louis
7. San Francisco
8. Santa Monica (X2)
9. Calgary (Canada, X2)
10. Edmonton (Canada)

Ocklawaha

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

Dude?? you're kidding, people still say dude?
you are very naive about what a mass transit system costs and how it is funded.

My obviously absurd post just highlights why mass transit is not accepted by many people, in a sprawling place like JAX it just isn't possible to provide a level of service that will draw many people. Mass transit works best in places with a main business district, like JAX's urban core, but most people do not travel to the urban core for their work, and there is zero shopping and very little in the way of a night life there. People here and in most places travel to spread out locations for work shopping and play.
Some limited mass transit could be successful here but costs would be astronomical and I don't think it is supportable from a financial perspective which brings us back to my original question, where will the money come from to develop and operate a mass transit system here in JAX? the city/county is always crying poverty yet the sales tax is higher than other counties. Unless new methods of funding are created mass transit in JAX will remain a dream

I am from Brooklyn NYC, and I know for a fact that over half that city takes those trains and Buses, so your opinion that people don't accept mass transit is ridiculous. The ridership in Chicago and DC is high too, and the same goes for London and Tokyo. The only reason I have seen that mass transit didn't take off in other places in America is because of extremely poor implementation.

Ocklawaha

Great info man, do you have links to any of the studies?

[Since 1972]

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

Ignored was the indication that this Skyway, streetcar, RDC, BRT, City Bus and River Taxi would be a completely interlinked SYSTEM. A system of choice, of modes, routes, comfort, and speed... a good transit system knows that mix sells, just as it does in Wal-Mart. The more the better.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get you from the Airport? Hey, did you READ the Commuter Rail or the Hybrid Rail portion? This is going to the City within 30 days! This is very real and you soon may be able to travel from a BRT connection from Airport-to-Train at River City Market Place Station. Ride to Union Terminal, take another train to Orange Park or Green Cove. Hop on the Skyway to City Hall or board a REAL streetcar to the Landing. Need access to Northwest Jax? The new bus routes would transfer across the platform.

Forgive me if my ability with the English language is failing me and I don't know what to make of that paragraph. Say I wanted to go from an existing JTA bus stop on University Blvd. N., to the airport. What would I do?

I disagree that mix sells. I don't want to change from a bus to a monorail to a train and back and forth. Sorry. I think simplicity sells.

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

Bus Rapid Transit: What JTA is calling the Rapid Transit System, is going to be neither, Rapid or a Transit System. It will be built, but nothing like what they have envisioned, IE: elevated bus freeways over railroads and Interstates. The only part I see really getting off the ground (pun intended) is Arlington Expressway, but even this segment will more likely follow the service roads rather then the crazy expensive elevated busway they think they need.

Again, forgive my slow mind. I'm a little lost as to what we're getting. It is, or it isn't, an elevated highway?

Is there some kind of map online showing all these things?

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

I am from Brooklyn NYC, and I know for a fact that over half that city takes those trains and Buses, so your opinion that people don't accept mass transit is ridiculous. The ridership in Chicago and DC is high too, and the same goes for London and Tokyo. The only reason I have seen that mass transit didn't take off in other places in America is because of extremely poor implementation.

that's not the argument, I've already said that mass transit works somewhat well in like brooklyn ny that serve an urban core.

the costs are astronomical, NYC which has one of the highest farebox recovery rates of any US transit system still only collects about 60 cents on the dollar to run that system, what that means is that people who never set foot on mass transit are paying for the cheap rides others are receiving. Are the people of the JAX region ready to help pay for others to have a cheap ride to work?

I am not against mass transit, I am against mass transit systems that need massive subsidies from the taxpayers to operate.
the day I have to pay taxes to support mass transit is the day I leave the area

[Since 1972]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

the day I have to pay taxes to support mass transit is the day I leave the area

Why?

Do you leave an area where you pay taxes to support schools, if you have no kids? Should we not have libraries, parks, or public marinas, too? Jacksonville traded bridge tolls for a sales tax - would you leave this area because of that?

I, too, would prefer a private company to build and operate mass transit and do it profitably instead of with government bailouts, but who's going to step up to that plate? And how will they acquire the rights-of-way to build it?

[Ocklawaha]

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

Ignored was the indication that this Skyway, streetcar, RDC, BRT, City Bus and River Taxi would be a completely interlinked SYSTEM. A system of choice, of modes, routes, comfort, and speed... a good transit system knows that mix sells, just as it does in Wal-Mart. The more the better.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get you from the Airport? Hey, did you READ the Commuter Rail or the Hybrid Rail portion? This is going to the City within 30 days! This is very real and you soon may be able to travel from a BRT connection from Airport-to-Train at River City Market Place Station. Ride to Union Terminal, take another train to Orange Park or Green Cove. Hop on the Skyway to City Hall or board a REAL streetcar to the Landing. Need access to Northwest Jax? The new bus routes would transfer across the platform.
Forgive me if my ability with the English language is failing me and I don't know what to make of that paragraph. Say I wanted to go from an existing JTA bus stop on University Blvd. N., to the airport. What would I do?

I disagree that mix sells. I don't want to change from a bus to a monorail to a train and back and forth. Sorry. I think simplicity sells.

Under current plans you would ride the City bus to Arlington Expressway, Change to BRT to downtown, change to the Air JTA bus. OR, if it is running at the hour you need it, you could Ride the City bus to Arlington Expressway, and board the Air JTA bus for the Airport.

Under the system we are working on, you might ride a City bus to Arlington Expressway, and change to Air JTA.
or in the future
Ride the Light Rail to Union Terminal, and hence to the Airport.
or in the future
Ride the BRT to University Station, get on the Commuter rail and get off at Airport Station, where shuttles take you to the ticket counter.

The system in your area depends in part on the New Matthews Bridge and what we are able to "sell to Washington and Tallahassee" as a base for Mass Transit. Will it handle freeway plus BRT plus LRT? Just BRT? Just LRT? Commuter Rail? Skyway? it all depends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocklawaha
Bus Rapid Transit: What JTA is calling the Rapid Transit System, is going to be neither, Rapid or a Transit System. It will be built, but nothing like what they have envisioned, IE: elevated bus freeways over railroads and Interstates. The only part I see really getting off the ground (pun intended) is Arlington Expressway, but even this segment will more likely follow the service roads rather then the crazy expensive elevated busway they think they need.

Again, forgive my slow mind. I'm a little lost as to what we're getting. It is, or it isn't, an elevated highway?

Is there some kind of map online showing all these things?

Yes there are all sorts of maps and design materials available. JTA launched a information campaign to sell the City on a BRT system, much of it elevated above railroads and current highways, including the Arlington Expressway, CSX line from Union Station to Murray Hill, FEC line from San Marco to about Emerson, and segments on I-95 North from Union Station to Gateway Mall. While the official line from JTA is "It's just like rail only cheaper..." They need to look up the word "CHEAP"! The rail projects they quote are mostly Light Rail built in Subways, and YES, that is more costly. But to elevate a freeway above what we already have for buses will cost us 1 BILLION dollars over 30 years, and STILL not reach Orange Park, Avenues, Regency or the Airport! Orlando's commuter rail is going to be about $3 Million a mile complete... 60 miles, already under-construction. Our "BRT Plan" comes to $26 Million a mile at todays money cost, with a 30 year build time.

As for the "Mix Sells" part, it works like this:

If you construct a shirt out of thread all going the same way, it falls apart, But put a weave into it, then add heavy seams and it will last forever. In the case of Transit, the Bus is the basic Thread and most cross weave, the Rail or Skyway is the heavy seams.

Another example is:

The Skyway could sail over the stadium traffic on any game day, BRT, City Bus, Light Rail or Commuter Rail might have signal priority, but all they'll do is create a traffic jam. Thus the Skyway has a place in that area. Downtown, imagine coming out of the Landing at 2 AM and not in condition to drive... The nearest buses (in the future) would probably be down at Union Terminal. You could crawl to Central Station and ride the Skyway to Union Station to find your bus. Or perhaps, board the Light Rail streetcar right in front of the Landing, in a real "gas lamp" district, and simply ride home.

Go to: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/com...age/Itemid,89/
click on Transit at the bottom of the HOME page. Or take the shortcut below:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/677/116/


Hope this clears it up...

Ocklawaha

[vdecapio]

After reading all these posts I just want to give a little input:

I do feel that a city like Jacksonville should have some area(s) where it is possible to not need a car. A truly urban lifestyle. I have found it pretty surprising/dissapointing that in the 12th largest city in the country I (and everyone else) am (are) fully dependent on a car.

Even the people who work downtown could choose to live there, but would need a car to drive to restaurants/grocery stores in the evenings and on the weekends. And for those who work downtown and want to live near food/shopping outside of downtown need to drive downtown for work.

Of course THE BIG JAX SPRAWL FEST is too out of control to ever be fully connected by a complete public transportation system, but I feel that certain areas near the urban core need to be connected by public transportation. This would allow "blood" to flow into and out of the downtown again through the "arteries" and "veins" of the public system. San Marco and Riverside/Avondale are great areas to begin this venture too. These are already the only neighborhoods where you can live a quasi-urban life style, but they are only small isolated areas where most likely you need a car to either go to work or get some sort of essentials. But, if you connect these neighborhoods to downtown and to each other through one system I for one would move to one of these three areas and companies would move there to. Property values would go up (for those who own houses there already) and businesses would flourish. Downtown would again have life.

I am a "young professional" and I think that single people like myself and even young couples who do not yet have kids enjoy the urban lifestyle. Ride the bike or take the train everywhere. Use a car only for a sunday afternoon drive to the SJTC or to the beach. That would be awesome. I would consider staying here long term if I knew a system like this would go in. The suburbs would still be here for those who have kids, like having a yard, and love to drive (over speed bumps). I just think that there should be a neighborhood or two for people like myself who want the car-free urban lifestyle.

And also, buses suck. Train or nothing. Seriously. Trains are a cool adventure, people like riding them. Buses are all around unappealing.

And I don't think the $6 fee for the George Washington Bridge into Manhattan, or the 4.50 fee into Queens or Brooklyn, or the $8 toll for the Veranzano Narrows into Staten Island are solely to maintain the subway system. NYC in general has very expensive systems for most public utilities: sewer, water (I mean they get their water from upstate NY),roads, bridges. Not to mention the local bosses who need their collection too (Italians, Russians, etc.). I think it is just very costly to maintain a city's infrastructure for over 8 million people in such a small area like NYC. I would assume that the subway/train is only a portion of these costs. It certainly would not be so expensive for a relatively sparsely populated and a relatively small Jax population. And also it could be built at ground level, which would be much less expensive than the subway system in NYC.

Bring it JAX, trainstyle!!

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

that's not the argument, I've already said that mass transit works somewhat well in like brooklyn ny that serve an urban core.

the costs are astronomical, NYC which has one of the highest farebox recovery rates of any US transit system still only collects about 60 cents on the dollar to run that system, what that means is that people who never set foot on mass transit are paying for the cheap rides others are receiving. Are the people of the JAX region ready to help pay for others to have a cheap ride to work?

I am not against mass transit, I am against mass transit systems that need massive subsidies from the taxpayers to operate.
the day I have to pay taxes to support mass transit is the day I leave the area

Then you need to live in a area that has NO mass transit, because like it or not, one way or the other you will be paying. I guess its just like how we citizens who rather take mass transit have to put up with the pollution car drivers put out.

So I think what cities should do for people like you is, make you sign a contract. You agree not to drive a car that will pollute our air (which we all have to breath in) and agree to ride a bike, walk or do something else that will contribute zero percent to polluting and in turn your tax money should not go to mass transit.

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

Then you need to live in a area that has NO mass transit, because like it or not, one way or the other you will be paying.

Perhaps one of the Dakotas?? I heard they are pretty behind on the times. Maybe even Texas too. I lived there for a while. They like their automobiles & they like 'em GIGANTIC.

[Ocklawaha]

So I think what cities should do for people like you is, make you sign a contract. You agree not to drive a car that will pollute our air (which we all have to breath in) and agree to ride a bike, walk or do something else that will contribute zero percent to polluting and in turn your tax money should not go to mass transit.

Okay, so we scrap all mass transit in Jacksonville. We add some 50,000 new cars to our roads every day. We that rode transit will have the new commuters sign a contract to pave and re-pave every street as the need comes up. No federal, no state, no toll money, just good old private style profit and loss. Since new highways can cost $100 Million a mile, and resurface isn't far behind. With 1,900 miles of State road alone in Duval, just the bill for that would be over some $100,000+ dollars. Perhaps you should sign THAT contract, you pay for the roads, and we'll ride our bikes... while the trains and buses rot in a field.

Ocklawaha