Mass Transit Crystal Ball (renting, purchases, taxis)

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by jimbo13

can we all agree that there is NO way that any type of mass transit system could succeed in jacksonville? that town is simply way too spread out for an elevated subway...

limited services along certain corridors could be successful, such as a line that ran along the beach or atlantic blvd corridors, lines that follow roosevelt ave and maybe even an airport line, but without a central core all you'd have is many branches without a trunk.
Then there is the issue of funding, where will the money come from?
The funding issue is the dark secret that the transit advocates don't want you to think about, not one advocate, amateur or professional seems to be able to provide any kind of a clue as to who will pay for any part of building and operating a mass transit system.

before you go as far as thinking about logistics, a source of funding needs to be identified.

[Since 1972]

What a tough crowd!

I don't believe trains are doomed to failure. I think it would be great to be able to catch a train within a reasonable walking distance of my house and take it to the places in town I usually go. (And I do mean a train, not a bus/train/trolley mix) But I don't expect that to ever happen in Jacksonville. I have too little confidence in city government. Look at the courthouse fiasco.

I foresee in my crystal ball another people mover boondoggle that no one will ride because it, too, will never be finished. It will take a "Big Dig" amount of money and effort to make it work here, and this is Jax - if it doesn't float in the river or play football we don't care about it.

I still can't find a Jacksonville map showing the proposed system.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Since 1972

What a tough crowd!

it's a tough issue, sorry for the "toughness" but there are so many loose ends and questions that go unanswered, it could be the biggest boondoggle in FLA history, so I think it makes sense to get the tough questions out of the way before things proceed

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

it's a tough issue, sorry for the "toughness" but there are so many loose ends and questions that go unanswered, it could be the biggest boondoggle in FLA history, so I think it makes sense to get the tough questions out of the way before things proceed

Must you reply to every post?? As Ocklawaha said, if you want these "tough questions" answered & are so passionate about where the money is coming from, attend the meetings & make your voice heard. Because right now it means absolutely nothing as you are just some random guy in a forum.

Ocklawaha sounds like he's in the know & already made it clear he cant give away too much info, but you keep asking the same question, replying to every post even if they aren't directed to you & trying to back up your reasoning by posting your own "stats" from outta nowhere. Oh sorry, because you lived in NYC, which has nothing to do with anything.

I'm done. Hopefully you are too, but I doubt it.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by KerryB

Must you reply to every post?? As Ocklawaha said, if you want these "tough questions" answered & are so passionate about where the money is coming from, attend the meetings & make your voice heard. Because right now it means absolutely nothing as you are just some random guy in a forum.

Ocklawaha sounds like he's in the know & already made it clear he cant give away too much info, but you keep asking the same question, replying to every post even if they aren't directed to you & trying to back up your reasoning by posting your own "stats" from outta nowhere. Oh sorry, because you lived in NYC, which has nothing to do with anything.

I'm done. Hopefully you are too, but I doubt it.

nobody has answered the most important question,

WHERE"S THE MONEY COMING FROM????

if your boy's knowledge is so vast why won't he divulge the answer?

[Wild Style]

I wanted to submit this article as proof that living in a place doesn't make you a authority on that cities transit system and operation costs. MTA had a surplus of a 1 billion dollars in 2006 which dispels the myth that they didn't make enough to cover operational cost

link

[Since 1972]

The money will come from taxpayers, probably local, state, and federal. How do you think the new port facility will be paid for? How do you build an airport? A bridge?

Or, we could sell lottery tickets.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

I wanted to submit this article as proof that living in a place doesn't make you a authority on that cities transit system and operation costs. MTA had a surplus of a 1 billion dollars in 2006 which dispels the myth that they didn't make enough to cover operational cost

link

I have no argument with that article, but how is that surplus generated?

it isn't from the farebox, it's from collecting money from external sources like taxes and tolls, did you notice the absence of anything related to lowering the amounts collected? in fact they are raising fares and tolls to generate even more money. Government will never give back what they've taken
as the following data confirms no public mass transit pays for itself, outside funding is always necessary, NYC which has the highest recovery rate in the US still needs massive subsidies, The question remains, where will JAX find the $$ to fund it's mass transit?

Farebox ratios around the world from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

The following table lists farebox ratios for some public transportation systems around the world.
Ratio of fares to operating costs for public transport systems
(%)SystemRatioYear
Europe
Brussels28%1991[3]
Copenhagen52%1991[3]
London Underground84%1991[3]
Milan28%1991[3]
Munich42%1991[3]
RATP (Paris)43%1991[3]
Stockholm Transport44%1996[4]
Vienna50%1991[3]
Zurich66%1991[3]

Japan
Osaka (Hankyu Railway)123%1991[3]
Osaka (OMTB)137%1991[3]
Teito RTA (now Tokyo Metro)170%1991[3]

North America
Atlanta (MARTA)32.3%2006[5]
Bay Area (BART)56%2005[6]
Chicago (CTA)44.3%2002[7]
Edmonton, Canada (ETS)39.4%2007 [8]
Cleveland (GCRTA)21.5%2002[7]
Detroit (DDOT)13.9%2002[9]
Los Angeles (LACMTA)30.6%2004[10]
Las Vegas Monorail56.0%2006[11]
Maryland (MTA)26.3%2002[7]
Massachusetts Bay (MBTA)43.7%2002[7]
Miami-Dade Transit16.1%2002[7]
Montreal (SMT)57.1%2006 [12]
New York City subway67.3%2002[7]
Ottawa(OC)43.2%2007 [13]
New York/New Jersey (PATH)41.0%2002[7]
Philadelphia (SEPTA)58.6%2002[7]
Philadelphia/New Jersey (PATCO)61.4%2002[7]
Staten Island Railway15.2%2002[7]
Toronto Transit Commission74.5%2005 [14]
Washington, DC (WMATA)61.6%2002[7]

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Since 1972

The money will come from taxpayers, probably local, state, and federal. How do you think the new port facility will be paid for? How do you build an airport? A bridge?

Or, we could sell lottery tickets.

airports, port facilities, bridges all have sources of funding, it's called user fees, in JAX there used to be tolls on the bridges, when the bridges were paid off the tolls were removed.

mass transit as evidenced by the chart posted in another reply never comes close to paying for itself and will always be a drain on the taxpayers.

[toops]

A lot of this goes way over my head, but two things:

1] The FWB/Destin area is in great need of some sort of mass transit, for locals & tourists (I doubt any of you know or care about this situation, but it sort of fits with the discussion);

2] I am a fan of riding my bike, except when I am getting yelled at, cursed at, or nearly run over by insane drivers of vehicles. I do own a car, I do drive my car, but I absolutely hate driving and parking anywhere downtown, at the beach or at the Town Center. It's absolutely ridiculous. However, some places (e.g. shops at the Town Center, Publix, etc.) have yet to install proper bike racks.