Mass Transit Crystal Ball (Jacksonville, Miami: 2011, mall, buses)

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by WitchDoctor

Wow! This got interesting today.

I hope that Ocklawaha will continue to keep everyone in the loop because like it or not, something is going to have to be done about traffic in Jax.

Apvguy, I just have one question. If all of the taxes collected in the transportation sector in NYC (parking, excise taxes, tolls, etc) go to fund transit, then please tell us where the funding comes from to maintain the roads.

have you ever driven up there?

[KerryB]

Can we PLEASE get back on track & stop talking about NYC. Thats not the issue.

I'd honestly like to know more about the plans at this stage here in Jax instead of arguing about facts from a city thats 1,000 miles away.

[Ocklawaha]

Kerry B, WitchDoctor, OregonRain... I feel like I was asked to a turkey shoot only to turn out as the "turkey". I will keep you in the loop as we progress.

As for the endless questions on finance, not really my job, but let it be known this city passed a Better jacksonville Plan, some years back, The MONEY is in the bank to fund 20 miles of rail or 4 miles of BRT today, WITHOUT one cent of federal help. If we get federal grants, that can go as high as 80/20 in some cases, we could well afford a much larger system. There are several other funding methods used in streetcar and rail that bring in big dollars. Car sponsors for example, go to Tampa and look at the cars... a half a million dollars buys you a name on the car, and rights to several employee perks...etc. There are also Rapid Transit or Rail Transit tax districts, bed or entertainment districts etc... As far as I can see, it is WAY too early to try and pin down the money sources yet. But rest sure, the money is in the bank and NOT in your pocket or backyard. BTW, did you know the toll fee's were replaced by a tax increase, then the tax money taken away from JTA? Did you know that JTA is a STATE agency and not a part of Jacksonville? Besides straight transit grants, did you know that there are thousands of grants available for everything from bus shelter lights, to trees, and benches, shrubs and fountains...etc. Many of these are even private foundation grants. Getting creative is a great way to take the $$ monkey off the backs of the Jacksonville Citizen. Frankly, I'd love to see a FARE FREE downtown, including the Skyway.

One more thing, NYC is now working on the largest Subway mainline construction and consolidation as well as rail tunnel projects since the original system was built. Cutting back? Hardly!

Ocklawaha

[dolphin3]

I don't know much about mass transit but I do know that there are alot of people that are commuting up here from palm coast.I know someone who spent over $800 in gas last month! and alot of people whom could use a quick lift from the beaches to downtown and back everyday. Also how is the airport going to connect into this?

[coolyfett]

Originally Posted by Since 1972

Six more miles of Monorail? Pffft. Fuggetaboutit. The only way I see to make these systems actually work is to build a gazillion miles of rail criss crossing each and every neighborhood and connecting everybody to everything. Until that happens, it'll benefit too few people to be worthwhile.

The people that is wouldnt benefit are the ones that choose to live to far from everything. The Skyway should go to areas that are building UP and not OUT. If one chooses to live in Oceanway, Julington Creek or Orange Park then no your community doesn't deserve a Skyway Station. Places like Riverside, Springfield & San Marco do deserve these amenities.

Originally Posted by Since 1972

We need to be able to go to and from Jax International Airport from our homes, schlepping baggage, and not have to worry about parking or being stuck in traffic, or the all-day bus ride we have now or an $85 round trip taxi fare. It would also be nice to be able to hop a train to the beach and get off within walking distance of the sand, since there's no parking at the beach anyway.

The Beach and JIA are important destination and some how need to be connected to the heart of the city. Light rail connecting to Skyway terminals would help.

Originally Posted by Since 1972

Connect people to the local malls, Alltel Stadium, and the concert arena, and have a realistic way for commuters to get to work and back. That's all I ask.

I do agree the entire Sports Complex needs to be connected. As far as work and home, I think the city need to encourage jobs relocating back downtown and surrounding areas. Plenty of land in Springfield & San Marco for high rises. The land is not on the river so they shouldn't have anymore Berkman 2 incidents.

The car drivers probably don't care, but having the option of not using my car for very important to me. Hopefully Jax will eventually get its act together when it comes to mass transit.

[coolyfett]

Originally Posted by KerryB

Dude, no offense, but thats just an asinine comment. Be realistic. Anyone who says things like that is against any sorta of mass transit whatsoever. Do you also expect a jet to pick you up in your driveway?? You lost me on that one man. Sorry.

LOL the guy hates trains, and anyone that is for them always gets asked the question about cost. Cost really isn't that important. How much is that war costing? You know the one that we the citizen still don't know why we are fighting. You can alway claim tax exemption on any pay roll check if it is that big of a deal.

[coolyfett]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

I am from Brooklyn NYC, and I know for a fact that over half that city takes those trains and Buses, so your opinion that people don't accept mass transit is ridiculous. The ridership in Chicago and DC is high too, and the same goes for London and Tokyo. The only reason I have seen that mass transit didn't take off in other places in America is because of extremely poor implementation.

Also I want to add, that even if transit is needed, communities with 'upper class" drivers choose not to have it so that the "people in the area without cars" won't be able to get around, causing them to move somewhere else. Many car owners feel like they are better then people that don't own cars. Mass transit puts the non car owners on level ground. That has hurt mass transit in a lot of places. Plus cars pollute the air, and are a waste of fuel. We need other options.

[coolyfett]

Originally Posted by apvbguy

that's not the argument, I've already said that mass transit works somewhat well in like brooklyn ny that serve an urban core.

the costs are astronomical, NYC which has one of the highest farebox recovery rates of any US transit system still only collects about 60 cents on the dollar to run that system, what that means is that people who never set foot on mass transit are paying for the cheap rides others are receiving. Are the people of the JAX region ready to help pay for others to have a cheap ride to work?

I am not against mass transit, I am against mass transit systems that need massive subsidies from the taxpayers to operate.
the day I have to pay taxes to support mass transit is the day I leave the area

LOL WOW! The truth finally comes out. This is what I just posted. God forbid you have to help anyone in the city you live in. I hit it right on the head. PEOPLE THAT DON"T OWN CARS DON'T DESERVE TO GET AROUND. THEY SHOULD STAY IN ONE PLACE!!! They should stay in THEIR place. *shaking head* what a selfish society we live in. Everyone most do what is best for everyone. Who pays for road repair? Ms Jenkins who rides the bus pays her taxes to. Mr. Williams rides his bike to work and also pays taxes, so that the big SUVs have a nice pretty road to ride on. Everyone pays taxes. The government uses the tax money for whatever is needed. Roads, wars, welfare, public education, unemployment, police force, fire & rescue AND YES MASS TRANSPORTATION. That is why we vote. So that we can choose who makes the decisions. So your tax money can go to everything but Mass Transit, because you don't want those people to get around? Tell us more.

[coolyfett]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

you sure you live in NYC and maybe not jersey or long island? Anyway

link

link

link

There is TONS more, if you want you can google it.

(In the gators commentator voice)

OOOOHH MYYYY , OOOOOHHHHH MYYYYY, OOOOOHHHH MYYYYYY!

Is that Tim Tebow or Wildstyle?

[Ocklawaha]

Hello Y'all:

Here is the update on the Transit scene as I see it shaking out right now.


BRT-BUS RAPID TRANSIT:

We will have this, but it won't be the expensive "Quick way System" of BRT with it's own freeways running across the city. Rather we will have a form of BRT called "Light Rail Lite". A much more reasonable expense with buses running in HOV lanes. Watch for this to show up on Boulevard, Lem Turner, Norwood first, then spread out in places such as Arlington Expressway, Philips, Blanding, JTB etc. This is a system that makes sense and one I will support.

Don't expect it to be the Salvation of Mass Transit that is predicted from around the world. I expect ridership to improve slightly and the schedules to look much better. We may attract some more office commuters to ride, but otherwise, until it is part of a matrix that includes Streetcar-Skyway-Rail-Water-City Bus, it isn't going to cure anything.


STREETCAR

Another GOING TO HAPPEN project. As cheap to build as the BRT above, expect the first line to show up between the Hyatt and 5-Points. Though I'd like to see it a bit more involved in the movements about the city. You NYC fans will like the fact that I see this on PARK AVENUE (sorry Park St).
This will make investments along that stretch very good. In fact the result will be the Streetcar will "pull the city west".

What I'd like to see would be a starter route from St. Vincents at King and St. Johns up King to Park to Water to Newnan to Beaver to Stadium. Phase two would include Springfield, Gateway, Main St., 8Th street (Shands), Fairfax, Roosevelt Plaza.

This system can SELF FINANCE once the starter is going up.


COMMUTER RAIL:

Another GOING TO HAPPEN project. Right now they are looking at Yulee (park and ride for Georgia-Fernandina areas), St. Augustine West, Green Cove Springs and MAYBE Macclenny as end points.

Unless JTA goes regional - which is being done all over the country, don't expect to see Duval residents spring for anything beyond our bounds. So the final product - even with all the promise won't come about until Nassau, Clay, Baker, St. Johns, all get on-board.

Also WATCH AMTRAK and the new budget under the Democrats, the improvements they create will only enhance the chances of our rail system reaching that 91 mile first goal.

Also watch for certain Old Railroad Planners to stick their noses in and push AMTRAK-FDOT-JTA-ALACHUA into a "regional train" via West Jax.
Union Terminal - Edgewood - Marietta - White House - Baldwin - Starke - Alachua - Gainesville. See also TALLAHASSEE "Statehouse Trains".




AMTRAK:

Current plans are for the carrier to move the Northeast Corridor right down the Coast to Jacksonville. CSX has applied for the $$ loan to triple track the mainline, it was "suggested" they apply. LOL.

Amtrak is coming back downtown, they can't stay in the AM-SHACK forever. When they return to town, big things are going to start happening.

Watch for a 5 train grid to NYC. Also a 5 train grid to Miami via the FEC, 5 via the "A" line to Orlando (Roosevelt Bl), and another group running via Ocala. Ditto with Tampa-Orlando, Orlando-Miami, Miami-Tampa. Amtrak already has a model IN HAND, that shows with this many conventional trains running at 79 MPH (typical Florida Mainline Track Speed) they will recover 100% of the cost. FDOT and JTA are looking to climb onboard. This will also have a powerful effect on our Commuter Rail Plans.

OTHER AMTRAK? Yes, ATLANTA - and if we make enough noise and join with Valdosta, we'll get the "AIR-LINE" to Valdosta and hence North via the I-75 corridor Valdosta-Macon-Atlanta.

NEW ORLEANS - You Betchie, This train is MANDATED by the new Amtrak funding. Don't expect the Sunset to return - the timing in the Panhandle was HORRIBLE. However do expect a daytime JAX-NEW ORLEANS train to run again, perhaps using the old "GULF WIND" name.

CHICAGO-MEMPHIS-NASHVILLE-CINCINNATI - Well? I HAVE seen lines on some maps.



SKYWAY:

The City stepchild, but as rail comes home to downtown the pressure will mount to get this horizontal elevator to do some real distribution. Expect little things under the current administration (if anything). Then watch it expand down Riverside to Blue Cross/Everbank/DuPont/Fedility. Southside it will make it down to the Hilton and on to Atlantic, on the WEST SIDE OF THE FEC in San Marco, next to the Commuter Rail line. BUS-RAIL-SKYWAY station. Northbank - by the next BIG GAME - we will be running into the stadium area. Can you imagine the WORLD impact as they tune in the Superbowl and see a US stadium with Monorail trains running in and out? Call it the best investment in PR we have ever made, on the World mind we'd soar from "Jackso - what" to "JACKSONVILLE a living EPOCT".



BUS:

BIG - BIG changes all over town. New and many more routes. The end of the stupid Potato-Chip-Truck "trolleys" and something more unique for our shuttles.

More intercounty services if we go regional. Catch a city bus to Penny Farms? Green Cove? Nocatee? Fernandina? Kings Bay? Why not?

Within the City as commuter rail, skyway and streetcar take to the stage, many displaced buses will be re-deployed all over the urban area to close the long headways from 40 minutes down to more like 15.

Community Busing, this is happening as I write, big plans to take each community within the Metro and give it it's own bus service. Ride YOUR BUS to YOUR SCHOOL, MALL, STORE, WINN DIXIE etc...

BRT lanes will expand out from rail as rail takes root, THEN you'll see BRT explode with growth and usage. Let's see I can DRIVE JTB from my house or shall I ride? NO BRAINER GUYS.



WATER:

"As the Sun pulls away from the pier and our boat sinks slowly in the East" I'm not so positive that this thing will ever float. First it's slow and consumes lot's-o-fuel. If you go high speed, fuel is less but you kill Manatees. FAT CHANCE.

As good as the idea sounds, how many of those poor Jacksonville residents unfortunate enough to live on the St. Johns River need a ride to work? NOT.

Expect some improvements in the downtown area, maybe something down to the Cedar River or NAS JAX, but that's all I see here.



FINANCE:

Watch for the FTA to change the rules as our new fearless leader takes command. Money will free-up for Mass Transit and the old 80/20 will probably return. New Starts will get funded and the anti-rail bias will vanish. Heads are going to roll all over the USDOT-FTA etc.

Use of alternate fuels, alternate energy, hybrids, bio, etc... are going to make the whole program much more affordable. In some cases it may PAY to PLAY.