Commuter rail line

[projectmaximus]

Originally Posted by Ruger20

I am all for rail ( more rail = more work for me designing the systems) but I am realistic about what it takes to get it accomplished.

I recently completed a rail project and moved from an area with a new commuter line. The line loses money every day. It's much more difficult to fund a project based on future needs, than it is for current needs I guess is where I was going with the first 2 points.

As for subsidies, if you could point me to more recent data which supports that claim, I would love to review it. I have only found this so far:https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/r...pdf/entire.pdf

The line DEFINITELY loses less money than a road of equal capacity would though. As a rail engineer, you should know this!

Anyway, I do appreciate your thoughts and your link as well. It was an interesting read (ok...skim) although I found myself questioning things on every page. Without actually thoroughly reading it I'm not sure how to respond to that report other than to just guess that since it was looking at federal subsidies then the roads discussed only dealt with federal highways, which were by and large already built before the years of the study. Which means it did not include capital costs for the majority of the interstate system, mainly O&M plus a smaller percentage of construction. Furthermore, federal subsidies of rail are primarily for Amtrak, which we all know struggles to maintain decent ridership on any of its long-distance routes. Since this study compares on a $/person/mile basis, obviously rail receives way more funding. If our rail network were ever be built out and more usable, as ridership on some of the long-haul routes increased the per-person/mile subsidy figure would plummet. Also, they did not include fuel subsidies, which according to the 2012 Green Scissors Report would amount to $158 billion over the next decade (not solely gasoline though) and an additional $125 billion in subsidies for the Highway Trust Fund.

Other hidden costs of roads include parking, traffic police, signals and lighting. These aren't exclusive to vehicles but they mostly are.

Green Scissors 2012 Finds Environmentally Destructive Federal Programs | Taxpayers for Common Sense

Here are a few more quotes. I found this by googling "rail vs road subsidies." My search seemed fairly innocuous but all of the results were pro-rail, take that for what it's worth.

After all, Amtrak has gotten nearly $1 billion a year in federal funds over its 41-year existence. The per-ticket subsidy over the past five years has averaged nearly $51. Mica compared that to other forms of transportation: Using 2008 data, he showed that the average per-ticket subsidy to aviation was $4.28, for mass transit was 95 cents, and for intercity commercial bus service 10 cents.

What’s missing? Highways, of course. Luckily, Amtrak CEO Joe Boardman was on hand to remind him. “In the past four years, the federal government has appropriated $53.3 billion from the general fund of the Treasury to bail out the Highway Trust Fund,” Boardman told the committee. “That’s almost 30 percent more than the total federal expenditure on Amtrak since 1971.”

UPDATE: Reminder: Amtrak Subsidies Pale in Comparison to Highway Subsidies | Streetsblog USA

In Wisconsin, "between 2004 and 2008, roads in the state cost an average of $4.24 billion annually. Of this, $1.74 billion came from revenue sources unrelated to road use—primarily property and sales taxes—while another $600 million was borrowed…The fact is, roads constitute one of the biggest tax burdens we face."

http://ssti.us/wp/wp-content/uploads...s%20report.pdf

Meanwhile in Ohio, "drivers pay 60 percent of the cost for roads, with government subsidies picking up the tab for the remaining 40 percent."

http://www.policymattersohio.org/wp-...ys_2011920.pdf

By special interest or ignorance, Amtrak is painted as a huge consumer of subsidies. Yet, not only are the total amounts for the overall rail system much less, but so is the overall subsidy per trip — especially as annual miles-driven by Americans in 2010 (2.97 trillion, the most recent data) have fallen below 2004’s data (3.05 trillion), according to the Federal Highway Administration.

The Pew Research Foundation found that, of each trip taken by highway (cars or buses), users paid only 51 cents on the dollar to use the federal highway system. The federal government provides the remainder. This is a decline from 50 years ago when motorists paid 72 cents of every dollar of cost for using the highway system.

Road/air subsidies: huge, growing & safe; Amtrak’s are small, shrinking & attacked | All Aboard Ohio - Advocacy group for intercity travel in Ohio.

[Ruger20]

Originally Posted by projectmaximus

The line DEFINITELY loses less money than a road of equal capacity would though. As a rail engineer, you should know this!

The Engineering I do has nothing to do with cost comparison between rails and roads.

As for the rest of the links provided, I try not to base my research on opinion pieces as I find they all too often lead back to political talking points especially in this context.

Rail is here to stay and I think we can all agree that with some planning, budgeting, and less politics involved, we will all be better off

[projectmaximus]

Originally Posted by Ruger20

As for the rest of the links provided, I try not to base my research on opinion pieces as I find they all too often lead back to political talking points especially in this context.

Not sure what you mean by "opinion pieces." The four quotes I provided were actual studies/reports, and the first link which I did not quote was also a report. They were indeed political and potentially biased, but I just wanted to clarify that this was not some subjective "opinion piece." They were all rooted in fact and real statistics, which of course can then be manipulated to make a point.

Originally Posted by Ruger20

Rail is here to stay and I think we can all agree that with some planning, budgeting, and less politics involved, we will all be better off

Agreed!