Mass Transit Crystal Ball Illustrated... (Jacksonville, Tampa: insurance, trip , work)

[Ocklawaha]

This is just a broad overview, it does NOT include all current bus routes or all of the future routes. Rail would reach the Airport, Avenues and Orange Park in Phase one. Later all the way to Palatka, St. Augustine and perhaps Palm Coast, as well as Yulee and Fernandina Beach. The Skyway and Streetcar or LRT would replace most buses downtown, and EVERYTHING that moves would be available at Union Terminal/Transportation Center.


Here is a sample of a downtown detail map. Skyway is in BLUE, Rail in BLACK, Streetcar/LRT starter line in PURPLE, while the TEAL and GREEN shades are new electric shuttle buses. The Mini-Centers are in small red squares, and would feature, parking, food, retail etc... as well as FULL transfer facilities from one route or system to another.

What would they look like?

Commuter Rail...

Another form of Commuter rail the Self Propelled Cars, Rail Diesel Car=RDC or the Diesel Multi-Unit or DMU.
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Light Rail or Streetcar Tram (Open Car)

Modern Streetcar Route in Tampa
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The Skyway, all grown up.

Inside a newer type "Skyway" train (yes, you CAN walk from car to car)
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New Downtown Shuttle Buses... or....

Also available in Electric, CNG etc.
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New Bus Rapid Transit, exclusive lane and HOV lane buses and stops.

Such a bus would operate as a shuttle from the Airport Rail Station to the Airport Terminal.

Hope you enjoy this look at the future. While far from complete, it gives you an idea of what is coming.

Ocklawaha

[KerryB]

Pretty cool. Do you know what will be completed first & do have an ETA??

[WitchDoctor]

In this day of reloadable gift cards and RFID, I hope that there will be some sort of "JAXPass" that will let a passenger board the commuter rail in Mandarin and then transfer to the shuttle bus or skyway to complete their commute without having to fumble for change.

The problem that I've had with mass transit systems in the past is that the overall commute (door to door) ends up being longer due to the layout of the system and the schedule. The route I used above works pretty well. If I live on New Kings Rd and work at St Lukes on JTB, How many transfers will I have to make and how long can I expect the trip to take?

[Since 1972]

I forgot Tampa has the electric street cars. They're a good way to get to Ybor City from downtown Tampa.

[vdecapio]

I think the BRT is such a stupid idea. Elevated, separate roads for buses? That just sounds so wasteful. I think the rest of the plan is fantastic....for public transporation. I like the commuter rail and streetcar/rail ideas along with the expansion of the skyway, but the BRT will always make no sense to me.

Again, I don't want to ride a bus, I want to ride rail/train. I am human. No bus. No one rides the buses now, and the only thing that will get people out of their cars is a train. No doubts in my mind. No more buses. More buses=waste of time/money/space.

I am hopeful that Jax steps into the present/future with a transportation system though. 12th largest city in the US with no feasible public transportation system almost makes me laugh....laughing all the way to the gas pump....and then the oil change...and then brakes need replaced....and the windshield cracks....and then the transmission fluid needs replaced...and then new tires! Yeah its all real funny....not to mention the obesity problem because everyone drives everywhere and there are few isolated parks. Its all real funny! Bring it public transportation style...please! Move into the future Jax.

[vdecapio]

Oh yeah another funny thing about a lack of public transportation.....my car insurance....a whole new thread for that bulls**t system.

[Ocklawaha]

At this stage, the whole plan is in the "study" phases. Some are VERY early and major changes could be effected. The Skyway, is hitting a brick political wall...(Skyway=failure=loss of office). The BRT has ran head-on into public opinion, but not enough outcry to get the "stupid" out of it. Rail is in study and is pretty set on it's routes, though Palm Coast, even Daytona could see JTA JaxTrax (or whatever we call it). FDOT is very much part of the process. Regular bus routes may shift from a central City-out type hub and spokes system, to more of a local system, focused on community transit and the nearest Rail/BRT/Skyway Stations. The downtown may see the most change, going classic... with streetcars, omnibuses, even electric trolley-buses.

In this day of reloadable gift cards and RFID, I hope that there will be some sort of "JAXPass" that will let a passenger board the commuter rail in Mandarin and then transfer to the shuttle bus or skyway to complete their commute without having to fumble for change.

The problem that I've had with mass transit systems in the past is that the overall commute (door to door) ends up being longer due to the layout of the system and the schedule. The route I used above works pretty well. If I live on New Kings Rd and work at St Lukes on JTB, How many transfers will I have to make and how long can I expect the trip to take?

I am certain there will be some sort of JAX-PASS. If Rail gets split off from JTA (due to federal or state red tape) then you might have a JAX-PASS and a RAIL-PASS. Way too early to tell.

Under my concept plan, you would board a BRT bus on New Kings/MLK and change across the platform at Union Terminal/Transportation Center for the commuter rail. I also like the idea of BRT on JTB so 2 across the platform changes would make it happen...almost door to door. You would still have the option of using regular City Bus routes and transfers.

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I think the BRT is such a stupid idea. Elevated, separate roads for buses? That just sounds so wasteful. I think the rest of the plan is fantastic....for public transporation. I like the commuter rail and streetcar/rail ideas along with the expansion of the skyway, but the BRT will always make no sense to me.

Again, I don't want to ride a bus, I want to ride rail/train. I am human. No bus. No one rides the buses now, and the only thing that will get people out of their cars is a train. No doubts in my mind. No more buses. More buses=waste of time/money/space.

Buses and BRT have a huge place in any major transit system. We currently are the 66Th largest in the USA. Keep in mind that the first 10-20 positions in that count are taken by only 2-3 Cities, such as NYC or LA which have many different layers of Bus transit. Our system dwarfs Tampa or Orlando's for example. Buses are about connectivity, feeding rail, feeding Skyways, and moving people from that rail line down a neighborhood street to home.

I agree with you that BRT on elevated freeways over railroads or our expressways is NOT the solution. This is the NUMBER ONE REASON I'm in this fight! We can do both community buses, commuter buses, AND an even more extensive BRT system, if we scale back the "toys" that JTA has imagined. Las Vegas built a great BRT system for $2 Million a mile. It uses current roads, with HOV lanes, some bus lanes here and there, and stays on the ground. I see no reason for us to re-invent the bus-wheel.

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I forgot Tampa has the electric street cars. They're a good way to get to Ybor City from downtown Tampa.

Yes, it's a great little system, already undergoing extension. It has caused over 1 BILLION Dollars in Transit Oriented Development. But the system only cost about $10 Million a mile. Now imagine the tax revenue from all that new development and tell me what it REALLY cost? NOTHING! It's already making the city rich. Sadly, they are putting up signs and brochures for tourists saying they have rebuilt part of "FLORDIA'S LARGEST TRACTION SYSTEM", something even FDOT seem to have bought into. This is not true... Jacksonville Traction at it's zenith was much larger. I just hope it's not a case of "To the winner (of the race) go the spoils) since we looked at this option in 1983 and tossed it out the window... uh, along with ME!

Ocklawaha

[vdecapio]

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

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Buses are about connectivity, feeding rail, feeding Skyways, and moving people from that rail line down a neighborhood street to home.

I agree with you that BRT on elevated freeways over railroads or our expressways is NOT the solution. This is the NUMBER ONE REASON I'm in this fight! We can do both community buses, commuter buses, AND an even more extensive BRT system, if we scale back the "toys" that JTA has imagined. Las Vegas built a great BRT system for $2 Million a mile. It uses current roads, with HOV lanes, some bus lanes here and there, and stays on the ground. I see no reason for us to re-invent the bus-wheel.

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Ocklawaha

Ok I will take BRT only if they do not create new lanes or elevated lanes. That is rediculous. I think the whole bus idea in general is very risky. I still think most people will drive to the nearest train station....just like in Jersey. Few people will ride the bus to the train and then from the train to their homes. Again, no one likes riding a bus. If people have to move themselves on 4 rubberized tires, they will pick their own personal car over a bus anyday. Especially people who are in a rush to get to work. Traffic is not bad enough here to force people out of their cars into a bus. Especially for a short trip. But I do think mainline rail is a great thing.

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by vdecapio

Ok I will take BRT only if they do not create new lanes or elevated lanes. That is rediculous. I think the whole bus idea in general is very risky. I still think most people will drive to the nearest train station....just like in Jersey. Few people will ride the bus to the train and then from the train to their homes. Again, no one likes riding a bus. If people have to move themselves on 4 rubberized tires, they will pick their own personal car over a bus anyday. Especially people who are in a rush to get to work. Traffic is not bad enough here to force people out of their cars into a bus. Especially for a short trip. But I do think mainline rail is a great thing.

I hate buses too, but you gotta understand that the rail simply cannot be everywhere, so thats what the bus is for. Yes, it sucks, but still people use them. Even the best transit systems in the US use buses to pick up the slack.

I agree that there shouldn't be a separate lane though. A lot of cities have these "express" buses that pick everyone up at designated parking lots in the outskirts of town & then never make anymore stops until they reach the "hubs" in town. That would be good here in Jax I think. I'd rather do that than have a bus in a separate lane that stops all the time.

[gradco2004]

Originally Posted by vdecapio

I think the BRT is such a stupid idea. Elevated, separate roads for buses? That just sounds so wasteful. I think the rest of the plan is fantastic....for public transporation. I like the commuter rail and streetcar/rail ideas along with the expansion of the skyway, but the BRT will always make no sense to me.

Again, I don't want to ride a bus, I want to ride rail/train. I am human. No bus. No one rides the buses now, and the only thing that will get people out of their cars is a train. No doubts in my mind. No more buses. More buses=waste of time/money/space.

I am hopeful that Jax steps into the present/future with a transportation system though. 12th largest city in the US with no feasible public transportation system almost makes me laugh....laughing all the way to the gas pump....and then the oil change...and then brakes need replaced....and the windshield cracks....and then the transmission fluid needs replaced...and then new tires! Yeah its all real funny....not to mention the obesity problem because everyone drives everywhere and there are few isolated parks. Its all real funny! Bring it public transportation style...please! Move into the future Jax.

You hit it on the head about the BRT. Too bad the community-at-large knows nothing of it. They would surely be outraged at the 1 BILLION dollar price tag & 20 year buildout for just freakin' buses that no one is going to ride. Metrojacksonville.com has been doing great coverage, be the major media outlets are not doing a service to the city by making this thing public.


We are the 12th largest city ---> but only the 58th largest metro. I guess that's not a great excuse, but it puts things into perspective.