Jacksonville a viable alternative to CA? (foreclosure, condo, buying a house)

[vdecapio]

Originally Posted by David in JAX

I know that this is getting off topic now, but this may be a good discussion for the OP and others considering moving.

Be very careful when using online calculators and cost-of-living studies. The online calculators use published numbers that may or may not be correct and cost of living studies often use generalities that are hard to compare without seeing things in person. I will give you my story as an example. I moved to Jacksonville from Dallas exactly two years ago. The online calculators at the time showed that the cost of living in Jacksonville was 10-15% lower than in Dallas. I purchased up to date cost-of-living information that was considered "dead accurate" through my attorney when I was in negotiations with my current company that showed the cost of living in Jacksonville to be 10% less. When I moved here and actually started living in an environment that numbers, medians, means and generalities couldn't describe I found out that the cost of living was 25% higher in Jacksonville with the exception of housing. Housing was twice as expensive. I quickly found that the reason for these differences was that cost-of-living calculators are completely quantitative and not at all qualitative. Sure, the median home in one city may cost a certain percentage when compared to another city. But no studies actually show an apples to apples comparison in price of the actual home you want. I also found that Jacksonville is a very large area and that statisticians crack and pack salary numbers to skew then in favor of one area or another. Example: The Times Union and Jacksonville Magazine publish the median family income in the Jacksonville Metropolitan area $59k. The actual number is around $47k. These skewed numbers often find their way into these calculators and calculations.

So, my suggestion is to actually put your feet on the ground in any city where you are planning to move. Don’t look at medians, means and averages. Compare your current home and neighborhood to a similar one in the other city. Go grocery shopping, buy gas, etc. in a city you are planning to live in before you actually pick up and go.

With this in mind, I have twelve family members and four childhood friends in Austin ranging in age from 1-65 and living in various parts of the city. I am there a lot and they are here a lot. The cost of living is definitely much, much lower in Austin, Texas than Jacksonville, Florida on January 15th, 2008. Yes home prices have dropped more here. But, when you make an apples to apples comparison on homes and neighborhoods it isn’t even close. Remember that means and medians mean nothing when the homes and neighborhoods are completely different. And groceries, utilities, goods & services, etc. also cost much less due to deregulation and increased competition. Property taxes are much higher there though and insurance (for some reason that I can’t understand at all) is not really that much lower.

Just for our information, what does the study say the median household and family incomes are for Jacksonville right now? I’m always curious to see how these numbers compare to the actual numbers.

I like your point about a house that you would want to buy here in Jacksonville. I added that in as one of my advantages for moving here, in that I would be able to buy a house based on the average median home price....which I thought was around 150,000. But now that I have come here, I see that there are very few homes for that price that I would even consider buying. Those homes are in sketchy neighborhoods and they look like quasi-trailers at best.

The homes in this area do leave something to be desired in about 90% of the city. I say this as someone who wants to live in a neighborhood and not a planned development. Jacksonville is seriously lacking for a person like myself. There are three types of neighborhoods here:

Areas with great neighborhoods and houses with character such as Riverside, Avondale, San Marco, some of the beaches, and the waterfront along the southbank St. Johns. Some parts of San Jose east of San Jose blvd. too. Entry level price probably in the low 300,000

Planned Communities. Entry level probably low 200,000

And the rest of the neighborhoods in my mind are sketchy looking. The houses are one story with an ugly aluminum roofed carport. And usually the yard is poorly landscaped. They look like quasi-trailer parks. Entry level probably low 100,000.

And then you have the abundance of condos. Why would anyone buy a condo in Jacksonville....especially in suburban areas like Tinseltown...beats me? But anyway again low 100,000.

So, as David in Jax pointed out, I moved here thinking I would see some variety of housing at the mean housing price that I would consider buying. If I liked planned communities I would probably be ok. But, I do prefer the neighborhood with character and because there are so few of them I fall into the 300,000 entry level range. So, basically I should have stayed in Jersey. Live and learn....not to trust statistics.

Please note: all prices listed above are off the top of my head and are not "statistically" accurate.

[riveree]

**Let's remember that the OP is going to be renting, so while the cost of housing might be of some limited interest to him, the original question is more about whether Jacksonville would suit him as well as San Diego**

[cricketfan]

Originally Posted by vdecapio

So, as David in Jax pointed out, I moved here thinking I would see some variety of housing at the mean housing price that I would consider buying. If I liked planned communities I would probably be ok. But, I do prefer the neighborhood with character and because there are so few of them I fall into the 300,000 entry level range. So, basically I should have stayed in Jersey. Live and learn....not to trust statistics.
.

Seems to me that you committed yourself to moving to Jacksonville before you knew what Jacksonville had to offer in terms of housing, pricing and lifestyle. I don't know of anyone who would make that kind of move based on statistics. Maybe I am missing something. In the case of David in Jax it might have been a case of a job obligation.

Believe me, I am not the smartest guy in the world, but before I decided on NEFL I made real sure that I was doing the right thing for my lifestyle (and my other half's) and, more importantly, my budget. I spent weeks doing a real Lewis & Clark across Florida ending up every night in a motel with shopping bags full of floor plans and real estate gooblygook until I was dizzy. Why? Because I knew that once I gave up my crib in NY I wouldn't be able to buy back into that NY market ever again.

So to the OP, do your homework renting or not.

[Ocklawaha]

Hey Ryan:

Welcome to Jacksonville... Even if it's just for a look. I mis-spent my youth all over California, and a good deal of my family is scattered from San Diego to Fresno. The "smart ones" came to Jacksonville...hee hee.

Coming from NY, it is easy to recognize that moving to and starting out in CA will be no simple task,

Coming from ANYWHERE and starting out in California is not an easy task. California has it's own way of doing everything, and everything is taxes, fees, and permits, then they tax the taxes and fees and permits!

- Weather (I don’t want to see another snowflake - ever)!

In either place you MIGHT see one... or two... so don't make the mistake of many folks and toss out the heavy jackets and brag your moving to FL or CA! I have seen about a foot of snow in the North end of Los Angeles, freezing cold in San Diego, and a light dust of snow in Jacksonville, when sleet was falling in Orlando at a cool 9 degrees! This is VERY RARE, but it does happen. 20-30 degrees is much more common in the months of Jan-early Mar. but only for a day or night then back up to 70.

- Life along the coast

Yes our coast DOES make a huge difference, the other day it was freezing on the West Side of Jacksonville, and I live near the beach, it never got below 38 or 40 here. The Ocean current flows North and carries warm water toward New York. Thus it warms the entire Southeast. In California, the current is from Alaska, and even in the summer, that water is cold as a witches tit's in a brass bra!

- More of a laid back/relaxed approach to life

Both places are laid back, but in very different ways...
California: "Did Jose bring the caviar? Oh darling you know Muffin just loves her caviar, maybe we'll just go to Albertsons and pick up a can of smoked oysters instead..." (result: Muffin the Kitty is happy, and everyone is relieved to see the crisis resolved).

Jacksonville: "Where the hell are the contractors, the inspector is due any minute? Oh darling, you know the fish are biting and the inspector and the cabinet guy got to talking about bass, they left with the neighbor kid, and two of the workmen and said to tell you they'll be back about Friday..." (result: Expect to get a big fish dinner out of this if your REAL NICE to the old boys).

- Seemingly considerable civic engagement

True, California is known for this, I was part of several riots myself, so I know the history pretty well. Today there is a society for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, and anybody can find a place to squeeze in somewhere.
Florida, believe it or not, we are not behind on this either, here in Jacksonville there is just about any kind of hobby, group or political force you want to get into. I know of societys for certain kinds of plants (legal ones guys), societys for trains, not just models but even certain railroads, and certain types of trains. In this respect, it may take some digging but Jacksonville has an amazing amout of group involvment.

- Potential to participate in a number of water sports year-round, or at least more than a few months in the summer in NY (I surf, sail, snorkel, scuba dive, swim, jet ski, etc.) (I know the surfing isn’t as great on the Atlantic)

Surfing sucks here unless there is a storm out at sea, then sometimes our beach can be very violent indeed. Dive, kayak, canoe, ski, swim, snorkel, scuba... oh hell, we HAVE to be the Worlds BEST. I do canoes, and I can't think of better paddles anywhere then right here in North Florida.

- Professional sports teams

Yes the NFL is awesome, Also home to the PGA Tour, The LPGA is just down the road in Daytona Beach, Tennis is big too, but we also have minor league baseball, hockey, and all sorts of college and university games...

I have lived by myself for the past few years, so I wouldn’t be exactly thrilled about getting a roommate (this seems possible in Jacksonville).

Jacksonville can be shockingly cheap, but choose your area carefully, look around and if it doesn't look up to par, it probably isn't. You don't want to get locked into a lease, where someones idea of a good time is blowing you walls out with "old hippie music" or not taking out the trash for 5 years.. We once lived in an apartment here that looked so nice, but we quickly found out the folks around us were slobs. At night the little roaches would stampede into our side... We nick named it "ROACH-HAVEN". The "Intercoastal area" is very nice.

My brief investigation into Jacksonville suggests that it might be a great alternative and offer many of the things I am looking for (and do so more comfortably when considering finances).

I get the feeling that opportunity wise, Jacksonville IS SAN DIEGO, circa 1960. This is the ground floor and the City is soon going to announce some Transit changes that will set off a building boom.

I found a number of great looking 1-bedroom apartments in Jacksonville for $800-$900 a month (some were even lofts downtown). Comparable apartments in San Diego would easily run $1,200-$1,500 a month (a big difference for someone just starting out making $30,000-$50,000).

YOU found an apartment in San Diego for $1,500 a month??? Holy S**T! I got to call my sister! Now in Jacksonville, for that amount, you could have just about anything on the market, anywhere.

Another great thing is that Florida does not have state income tax.

Yeah, how sweet is THAT?

I have been to Orlando, Key West, and Miami before, but never Jacksonville. The flatness of the state bores me a bit, but that is no big deal.

Wonder how you traveled? Did you know the Central Florida Ridge is from sea level to 300 feet? Not mountains by any stretch, but not flat either. Some pretty rolling land is just SW of Jacksonville in the Middleburg, Keystone Heights, Kingsley, Starke, Penny Farms, Green Cove Springs areas. Trail Ridge is a cool Karst formation, in Floridas cave belt (yes there are several cave explorer clubs too) and is really part of the Eastern Continental Divide, it runs across the far Western End of Duval County, and the above mentioned towns. Middleburg and Starke are BOOM towns.

I also know that Florida is quite humid in the summer, but I’m wondering if Jacksonville’s proximity to the ocean might help that.

YES and YES, humid in the extreme. Sometimes 100 degrees and 100% and no sign of rain! If you work outside, where else can you get a sauna and a paycheck? The beaches have a breeze that tempers that somewhat, but hot is hot, no matter where you run. Everything is air-conditioned. San Diego is very dry, and having a sister that lives on the dry side of the mountains there, I can tell you I think it cooks your skin and ages the hell out of your body.

Any thoughts?

Does this help? And you unhappy transplants, write me a note and see if I know some way to help you out.

Ocklawaha

[riveree]

Originally Posted by Ocklawaha

...Some pretty rolling land is just SW of Jacksonville in the Middleburg, Keystone Heights, Kingsley, Starke, Penny Farms, Green Cove Springs areas. Trail Ridge is a cool Karst formation, in Floridas cave belt (yes there are several cave explorer clubs too) and is really part of the Eastern Continental Divide, it runs across the far Western End of Duval County, and the above mentioned towns. Middleburg and Starke are BOOM towns. [/color]

]

Let's not forget Fort Caroline, right here in Jax! The bluffs make for a nice topography change. Palatka has the Ravines too.

[Christa LaFarlette]

Hello!
As a born and raised Ca girl transplanted via Navy here in JAX I'll throw my .02 in:-)

I like Jacksonville. I like that I could stay home with one income (married with kids) and take care of the kids. I like the river and the lakes, and the beach is there also. I like the slower life, and it is slower than in No. and So. Cal (I've lived in both). There is a definate cultural difference.

If it were me I'd move to Orlando area. Access to both beaches (Atlantic/Gulf), city life, jobs, slightly quicker pace, teams, etc.
Overall Jacksonville is not as liberal as CA, but then no where that I've found is! And I've lived in alot of places.
For San Diego: traffic, higher cost of living, beachs (occassionally contaminated), and a much faster pace of life.
For San Francisco (where I grew up): OH, I love SF. Noe Valley is a favorite. But if it's warm you want this isn't it. Foggy in the a.m and again at night--warm during the day. Check out the weather, it may not be for you. But the lifestyle there is perfect, and it can be affordable, but you have to start out living with roommates (possibly).
Hope this is helpful, Moderator cut: edit
Christa

[rtt]

I'm with vdecapio. There's not alot going on for a young single person here. Very little vitality. In the area that you want to work in, would a small town like Jax have enough in your field to choose from? Take another look at San Diego, then when its time for family and kiddoes, c'mon back!

[Jarndyce]

I get the feeling that opportunity wise, Jacksonville IS SAN DIEGO, circa 1960. This is the ground floor and the City is soon going to announce some Transit changes that will set off a building boom.

^^^This is the material point. But IS IT TRUE? If Jacksonville really is "the next San Diego" then I will be moving there. I just came from the Metro Jacksonville website and I was painted a completely different (and defeatist) picture of Jacksonville....

Unless San Diego "double-deckers" the I15...there will be a mass migration out of San Diego in 2 years...the fire threat increases every year, earthquake threat, corrupt city officials, rising crime and blight.....San Diego's problems increase every year...

[robertpolyglot]

A very creative and interesting analogy, Ryan. I thought the EXACT same thing, as a Californian, looking at some sketchy info about JAX.

You see how the water cuts into it on the map, you see a healthy but not overpowering skyline, you see the importance of the beach. True, in many regards, JAX is somewhat of a "ground floor" opportunity. The people I met there were very nice. I just didn't get a job (offer) there. Not only that, the forums condemn it for more intellectual singles.

The things that will hamper its upward spiral into the big leagues is that (1) it clings onto provincial Southern ways in its politics, (2) the climate is not as COMFORTABLE year round as is California's, (3) it is sitting there in isolation, immediately inboard from a lot of "redneck" areas, and (4) it is one of numerous Sunbelt magnets people are "allocating" themselves to.

However, if one can overlook that and find their niche, I'm sure it's quite livable. And, yes, at first blush after doing research, I too made the "San Diego-ish" assumption.

[travelingfood]

However, compared to the boarder city San Diego, you get less illegals, crime, earthquake/fire. and sadly far less good Mexican food
People always goes to another city for fun: Jax->Orlando, San Diego->LA/Mexico. Natural disaster(hurricane) is more predictable, unless St John's River decides to break FL apart one day, (and it will).
Weather is more humid.
We're both a coastal/port city though, but SD probably got more activities than Jax.